Do the Republicans actually want to win elections this year?

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
The Pubbies have very carefully redrawn their districts so that they are inassailable in many locales, or were before all this stuff hit the fan. If the Dems gain power, they’ll draw the districts a lot closer to their own hearts’ desires, resulting in more even races, and surely more races with Dems in an unassailable position.

[/QUOTE]

Congress doesn’t redraw Congressional districts; state legislatures do. And they are only supposed to be redrawn after a census. (Except, of course, if you live in Texas.)

22

I love listening to all the liberals on this board. We have a variety of conspiracy theories to choose from. Some assert that the oil companies are lowering oil prices to help the GOP. If you don’t like that one, then others will assert that electronic voter machines will somehow produce GOP victories by stealing votes from Democrats. And, if neither of these play out, we have this thread that claims the GOP is slyly tring to lose the election.

It’s truly amazing that any intelligent person can buy into these theories. I know it’s hard for folks to believe, but sometimes things happen in life that aren’t planned by anyone. Not everything is the result of some great, ever-powerful cabal that is directing the fate of the nation. I know it’s hard to accept that perhaps, just perhaps, voters like to vote for Republican candidates. I know it’s much easier to think that evil Karl Rove is causing gas prices to rise and fall on demand, voting machines to prefer Republicans, and your cat to suffer from hairballs, but I assure you that this is highly unlikely. If the GOP truly were are nefarious and powerful as you think, I have failed to see it during my long association with the party. Of course, maybe I’m just here spreading disinformation. . .

23

[QUOTE=Brain Wreck]
I’m convinced more than ever that the Republicans will suffer heavy intentional losses this November.
[/QUOTE]

Okay; if someone is losing on purpose, who is it?

NO Congressman will willingly lose their seat. Never, ever, ever. Who the heck would fall on their sword on purpose and throw away their cushy job?

Nothing matters more to politicians than getting re-elected. They will lie, cheat, steal and hurt people to get re-elected. The two parties have gerrymandered Congressional districts to a state that it’s a laughingstock, all to get their people re-elected. No politician would ever put their own job above the party.

24

[QUOTE=Renob]
Some assert that the oil companies are lowering oil prices to help the GOP. If you don’t like that one, then others will assert that electronic voter machines will somehow produce GOP victories by stealing votes from Democrats.
[/QUOTE]
Why is either of those implausible ? I consider it far more implausible for them not to be true.

25

As it happens, I don’t believe that there has been any clearly documented case of Republican vote fraud by rigging electronic voting machines. However, I certainly don’t believe it’s an impossible scenario, or so extremely unlikely as to be not worth worrying about. The security and reliability of electronic balloting have been challenged credibly enough, IMHO, to raise reasonable doubts about them. Are you saying that you don’t believe such a thing could happen?

I doubt it, but if so, it might be a smart move. It is frequently good strategy to try to discredit the concerns of your opponents by poking fun at them as “crazy conspiracy theories”.

26

[QUOTE=Kimstu]
As it happens, I don’t believe that there has been any clearly documented case of Republican vote fraud by rigging electronic voting machines.
[/quote]

Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s recent articles in Rolling Stone are certainly worth a read, if only to raise a lot of unanswered questions about recent e-voting “irregularities”. Though I suspect some of the “non-partisan” conservatives on the SDMB will simply dismiss them due to the name of the author…

27

[QUOTE=Renob]
It’s truly amazing that any intelligent person can buy into these theories. I know it’s hard for folks to believe, but sometimes things happen in life that aren’t planned by anyone. Not everything is the result of some great, ever-powerful cabal that is directing the fate of the nation.
[/QUOTE]

It is, and I think it’s absolutely humiliating to hear Democrats talk like this. They seem to think they are so hopelessly outclassed by Republican political geniuses that they have zero control over their own political destinies. If Republicans want to win, they’ll win. If Republicans want to lose, they’ll lose - and there’s no way they’d lose by accident, so obviously this is part of some brilliant trap.

Republicans are people, and some of them (George Allen, Mark Foley) are stupid people. If they lose the House, or Congress, then they will have a very hard time doing anything they want to do for the next two years. They’ll lose control of committees and won’t be able to dictate the national agenda nearly as much as they have been. Democrats will be able to make them vote for or against bills they would not want to take a position on, which the Republicans have done many times in the last few years. They’d be foolish to bank on 2008. A lot can happen in two years, and they may be in worse shape then than they are now.

28

The conspiracy angle is just stupid. But ARE there a lot of Republicans who’d secretly (or not so secretly) like to see the Democrats win by a narrow margin? Absolutely! Pick up any conservative magazine or browse any conservative web site, and you’ll find dozens of right-leaning commentators who are disgusted by the current GOP administration and Congress, and who’d like to see a GOP loss. Not one that would give Nancy Pelosi & Co. too much power, but enough of a loss to throw a scare into the Republicans.

29

[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Why is either of those implausible ? I consider it far more implausible for them not to be true.
[/QUOTE]

Of course, there is no evidence to back either of these ridiculous assertions, but since the Repbulicans are just so darn evil they must be true, huh?

30

[QUOTE=Renob]
I love listening to all the liberals on this board. We have a variety of conspiracy theories to choose from. Some assert that the oil companies are lowering oil prices to help the GOP. If you don’t like that one, then others will assert that electronic voter machines will somehow produce GOP victories by stealing votes from Democrats. And, if neither of these play out, we have this thread that claims the GOP is slyly tring to lose the election.

It’s truly amazing that any intelligent person can buy into these theories. I know it’s hard for folks to believe, but sometimes things happen in life that aren’t planned by anyone. Not everything is the result of some great, ever-powerful cabal that is directing the fate of the nation. I know it’s hard to accept that perhaps, just perhaps, voters like to vote for Republican candidates. I know it’s much easier to think that evil Karl Rove is causing gas prices to rise and fall on demand, voting machines to prefer Republicans, and your cat to suffer from hairballs, but I assure you that this is highly unlikely. If the GOP truly were are nefarious and powerful as you think, I have failed to see it during my long association with the party. Of course, maybe I’m just here spreading disinformation. . .
[/QUOTE]

C’mon, Renob, you can do better than this … it’s only a little more than a generic scoff. First of all, the recent marked drop in gas prices just prior to a major election would tend to favor the incumbent party, whose current leader comes from a Texas oil family. You’d have to be kinda, well … naive … not to wonder if favors are not being exchanged. You’re not naive, are you?

Second, while there’s been no indictable evidence that Diebold machines have been used to circumvent elections, there’s TONS of evidence that they can be used to do so, and some very suspicious election results to indicate they might have been so used. So, once again, it would be naive to ignore the possibility of using the Diebold machinery to skew election results. Very naive, given the lack of verification provided by Diebold machines.

Of course, there are all sorts of ways to cheat via other methods, and the Republicans do have a track record of using them in Florida, most notably in the ChoicePoint scandal. So you’re completely in the wrong on that point. It would be EXTREMELY naive not to suspect a party that has been proven to engage in massive fraud not to do so.

Finally, if Karl Rove isn’t an evil genius, I don’t know who is. He is by all accounts a genius, and while he understand the electoral process as well as or better than almost anyone, he has absolutely no respect for the concept of “free and fair elections” witness the long track record he has accumulated of using dirty tricks to help the Republicans have their way with elections. And that qualifies him as evil, in my book.

31

[QUOTE=Renob]
Of course, there is no evidence to back either of these ridiculous assertions, but since the Repbulicans are just so darn evil they must be true, huh?
[/QUOTE]

You have asserted that the assertions are ridiculous. Now prove it.

Put up or shut up.

32

[QUOTE=Frostillicus]
Congress doesn’t redraw Congressional districts; state legislatures do. And they are only supposed to be redrawn after a census. (Except, of course, if you live in Texas.)
[/QUOTE]

Presumably Evil Captor is referring to the state legislative races. But Congress could draw the congressional districts nationwide, it is authorized by the Constitution to supercede state electoral laws for federal elections. But it has never done so and it’s not like Senate GOP wouldn’t filibuster or Bush Jr wouldn’t veto any such Democratic bill.

Just my 2sense

33

[QUOTE=2sense]
You have asserted that the assertions are ridiculous. Now prove it.

Put up or shut up.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, hurry up and prove that these secret conspiracies don’t exist. And I want hard facts, not speculation.

34

[QUOTE=Cheesesteak]
Yes, hurry up and prove that these secret conspiracies don’t exist. And I want hard facts, not speculation.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve not asked him to prove a negative. He made a positive assertion and I have asked him to back it up. He doesn’t have to prove the conspiracies don’t exist merely that their existence is unlikely. If he cannot then he can either withdraw the comment or simply fade away.

Just my 2sense

35

[QUOTE=2sense]
He doesn’t have to prove the conspiracies don’t exist merely that their existence is unlikely.
[/QUOTE]
You propose he does this, how? Frankly, I don’t know how one would “prove” alien abductions unlikely, and those are complete nonsense.

Not to mention that there are probably a dozen different theories as to how Bush, Diebold, Rove, whoever screwed with the election, does he have to prove each one unlikely?

36

[QUOTE=2sense]
You have asserted that the assertions are ridiculous. Now prove it.

Put up or shut up.
[/QUOTE]

There is no proof that any Diebold machines have been tampered with in a way that has given an election to a Republican. It’s hard to produce proof of a negative, so I merely cite the absence of any evidence in favor of this conspiracy theory.

Likewise, the conspiracy theory regarding gas prices has no proof behind it. In fact, there is a wealth of evidence that gives perfectly rational explanation for gas prices falling. Let me just give you one from a noted energy economist: http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2006/10/the_great_gasol.html

And I will simply quote Jerry Taylor of the Cato Institute on this issue: “To believe things without evidence is to be the world’s all-purpose dupe.”

I’m not naive but I’m also not stupid. I’m not ignorant enough to believe that there is a collusion among a variety of different executives to lower prices (and thus their profits) in order to help the GOP, especially when they have never done so in the past and especially in light of much more plausible economic explanations for this price drop. To think that there is a conspiracy that flies both in the face of common sense as well as economics is to simply let your political beliefs blind you to the facts.

Yes, under certain circumstances it is possible that these machines could possibly be hacked. So what? It’s ridiculous to condemn on the possible. A lot of things are possible. You would think that with all the attention Dems are focusing on “stolen” elections there would be at least one person coming forward with some evidence. Of course, the lack of evidence is just proof of another conspiracy, right?

Again, there is no proof of any electoral fraud with Diebold machines. It’s a pretty simple fact to grasp.

Oh, boo hoo. Karl Rove used dirty tricks. I don’t know if you realize this or not, but all political operatives use shady tactics during campaigns, especially close ones. This has been going on since the beginning of the Republic. Democrats do it, too. While it may not be exactly moral, it is widespread in both parties. Rove does it better than most, sure, but that doesn’t make him any more “evil” than any other political operative.

37

[QUOTE=Renob]
I love listening to all the liberals on this board. We have a variety of conspiracy theories to choose from.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve dabbled in the occasional conspiracy theory myself.

But I tend to believe that the Republicans will lose big in 2006 because they’re bad for the country & bad for the world. And more Americans have finally come to their senses.

Of course, some Republican “thinkers” are already saying that they really won’t mind losing.

I don’t believe them.

38

If Karl Rove is such a political genius, why are George Bush’s approval ratings in the crapper, and why are Republicans facing a humiliating loss this November?

Karl Rove is clever but stupid.

39

[QUOTE=Bridget Burke]
Of course, some Republican “thinkers” are already saying that they really won’t mind losing.

I don’t believe them.
[/QUOTE]

You are making a mistake by assuming that all Republicans think alike. The interests of politicians is to stay in office. Incumbent GOP Senators and Representatives want desperately to win. Bush and Karl Rove want desperately for the House and Senate to stay Republican.

However, this does not mean that rank-and-file conservatives – and the columnists and other conservative leaders – want the same thing. Many of them are dissatisfied by the GOP’s performance and think that a couple years in exile would do them good. I’m among this group and plan on voting for the Democratic challenger to my Republican Congressman.

Don’t assume that the variety of Republicans in the media are on the same page as the Republican elected officials. The GOP is not monolithic. Many Republicans think that it would be better for conservative/libertarian principles if the GOP were to lose this year. Elected officials, of course, are not among that group.

40

Actually, there is evidence the Diebold machines were severely messed with on the eve of the elections, by Diebold, in '02.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/093006G.shtml
Unverified code added to a machine without proper vetting is a serious no-no in a mission-critical program.

Not to mention, of course, RFK Jr’s allegations here, about 04
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11717105/robert_f_kennedy_jr__will_the_next_election_be_hacked/print

TARFU, man.