Or, does the hallmark narcissism of psychopathy prevent a person with the condition from being the least bit concerned about his or her own mental health?
A related question: Does worrying that one is a psychopath preclude one from being a psychopath?
I ask because I have depression. I know I have depression, and when I get depressed I recognize that there is something wrong with the balance of chemicals in my brain. I’ve heard that OCD people (for example, Howie Mandel)often recognize that their compulsions are rediculous, yet they cannot easily keep themselves from indulging in them. I’ve just been wondering if psychopathy is one of the mental disorders that allows sufferers to be aware that they have a disorder.
if “psychopathy” is defined as absence of empathy, why would such people be concerned by the absence of something that they have never even experienced to a significant degree? E.g. if you never took drugs, would you be concerned with your failure to experience the “high” feeling? You wouldn’t be because you don’t even know what that is that you (and the rest of us normal people) are missing. Likewise, how would psychopaths know what they are missing in terms of feelings that they have never experienced? They would certainly know that other people consider their attitude strange/inappropriate (if other people are aware of it) but then so what? E.g. if somebody considers your haircut or your political views to be inappropriate, do you start doubting your mental health?
I am not a psychiatrist, but I am a medical doctor who does take care of the medical needs of a lot of psychopaths. And I’ve learned a lot about them, not in small part out of self-defense.
And basically, no, they don’t worry about their mental health, nor do they worry about being psychopathic.
The brighter ones (and they can be frighteningly bright) can be intellectually very knowledgeable about psychopathy, and have some concrete insights into the fact that their mental makeup is such that they are different from us, and that they can cause us problems as a result, but at best they’ll just try to adjust their behavior so to minimize any untoward impact on them.
Psychopathy itself doesn’t necessarily lead to bad behavior: a psychopath driving down the road will swerve to miss a child because they don’t want to hassle with the paperwork and other annoyances that will be inflicted upon them if they run the kid down. But a sadistic psychopath may perceive the pleasure of running the child down to be greater than the annoyance from the consequences.
I think I see the point you’re trying to make. As another example, is it possible for a person blind since birth to describe what being blind is like?
But I think what I am asking is somehow different. I am not entirely sure that it is impossible for someone to 1). have no empathy for others, by which I mean he or she cares not a whit about people, and 2). to be troubled by one’s lack of feeling for others. That is the essence of my question.
Thanks for the link! You posted before I could finish replying to a comment, so that’s why it looks like I completely ignored what you wrote I was hoping you’d see this thread, as I knew you would have some insight, being a prison doc and all.
Depression and OCD generally cause the individual some direct discomfort or suffering, but psychopathy causes none whatsoever. Usually it’s quite the opposite; psychopaths generally have a narcissistic egocentricity and grandiosity, a hugely inflated view of their own self worth, and a gross sense of entitlement. If you and I were in prison for serial rape it might tend to injure our self esteem and self image a tad, but it’s not unusal to see a psychopath in that same situation candidly rate their self esteem as a 10 out of 10. The consequences of their actions may cause them pain, but their psychopathy doesn’t - they’re absoultely pleased with who and what they are and don’t see a single thing wrong with themselves. In fact, one could argue that there really isn’t anything objectively wrong with them. It’s the “disease that causes no dis-ease.”
If you like QtM’s excellent link, I highly recommend Dr. Hare’s excellent book, Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of the Psychopaths Among Us. It’s on my must read list.
While I can offer no specific cites, on your second point I am pretty sure I’ve seen more than one (but certainly not all) folks convicted of “heinous” crimes in news interviews that appeared to lack some form of guilt/empathy and yet be at least aware of that fact and at some intellectual level bothered by it, if for no other reason that it caused them to end up on jail/death row.
I am pretty sure that my father and several close members of that side of the family are true sociopaths and have done some really bad things in their life but nothing like serial killing (except one who is long dead) or regular burglary as in physical property as far as I know. They are also very charming which relates to a different thread here. They are also extraordinarily wealthy by any measure and can do or buy whatever they want including some people or small towns and they never have to work again.
I live very far away from them which is a good thing overall and had a related phone conversation with my father a few weeks ago. He and his only sister have always been oddly close in a spooky kind of way and he recognizes that there is something very wrong with the conscience of several members of his family. He didn’t directly say that about himself but he did imply that he made the connection when I flat out said “Your side of the family is psychotic and flat out fucked up beyond repair.” His answer was “Bingo. I am glad you finally figured that out.” “We all are (meaning his side of the family) and you will develop it over time as well”.
That last part isn’t true because I have a strong conscience but most of them really don’t even though they know how to act when it comes to family and social settings. It is always about control and manipulation and every single thing, no matter how small comes with strings attached because that is the way they think.
Being sorry that you murdered someone because you ended up in prison is not at all the same thing as feeling guilt about hurting so many lives with that murder. Empathy means that you are able to have some idea of what another person must be feeling – almost as if you feel it too. A psychopath can’t feel even sympathy == which is feeling sad for someone.
I did see one supposed psychopath interviewed on television who could talk about the most brutal murders without flinching. But if you questioned him about his family, he would cry. He seemed to truly miss their presence in his life. That surprised me.
Practicality? They might simply decide for purely intellectual reasons that having empathy is a superior condition. Although apparently they don’t; someone who is in prison and doesn’t at least think they’ve screwed up has more problems than just a lack of empathy.
I would also like to add a psychopath would be defined as a lack of empathy but it doesn’t have to be a COMPLETE lack of empathy.
There are degress of every conditon. Just like one can have the flu with a 99º temp or a 104º temp and the same flu bug.
So I wouldn’t say the condition makes empathy mutually exculsive, though it certainly can be the case. It’s like anything, there are degrees. Some people may have at one time felt emphathy and lost it.
Also remember culture conditons make empathy a relative thing. We often are surprised how different classes of people are treated by some other cultures. This is because it can also be relative
I dont see why someone even with a complete lack of empathy or remorse cannot see or intellectually understand that such a condition is wrong or abnormal or unfortunate or undesirable or morally troubling.
They may well have trouble understanding/dealing with it on an emotional/feelings level but that doesnt preclude other ways of analysing it.
Look at it from their perspective: what’s wrong with it or unfortunate about it for them? You and I are restrained with notions of conscience and personal responsibility that they never have to spend a single second worrying about. They never, ever have to feel bad about doing wrong or hurting someone, never have to feel guilt, never have to feel shame over anything they do, and since the rest of society usually assumes that they are bound by the same societal rules the rest of us are they are by and large free to do move about as they wish and prey upon whoever they want undetected. They may intellectually understand that they are different from the rest of humanity in some fundamental way, but not in a way that’s undesirable or morally troubling to them in the slightest. Usually they view their difference as a superiority - they don’t have to follow the rules because they’re exceptional. The very concept of “morally troubling” is completely alien to them. They’re compeletely free to do as they wish, and it suits them just fine.
The ones I’ve known have noticed a difference between themselves and others, but they feel superior and advantaged; they know they aren’t constrained by empathy as others are. They see it as a benefit, not a deficit. They may find it puzzling, but not something that needs to be addressed or fixed. After all, it works well for them. It’s like having an extra-high IQ or extra-sharp eyesight. When you smack a bug, you probably don’t feel bad that you don’t feel more remorse, you just go on with your business.
IANAD nor a mental health specialist, and my grandfather isn’t diagnosed with anything, but he is someone who has said things like (translated and shortened) “I’d like to have penile-vaginal intercourse with you, but people say it’s not right between a man and his grandaughter and your grandmother would be angry, so why don’t you suck my dick?” Yes, that was meant as a serious proposal, not as an angry retort.
His lack of understanding of, among other things, the incest taboo, doesn’t bother him at all. His wife’s loudly-expressed displeasure does. He’s convinced that people who don’t try to have sex with their own children and grandchildren are either lying to themselves, lying to the world, too stupid to know what’s good or have had “their minds eaten by society” (never mind that “society” would be those selfsame people). He knows he’s abnormal but thinks he’s better.
For what it’s worth, in has last interview before being executed Ted Bundy admitted that he knew what he had done was wrong and he totally deserved to die for it.
IANAmedical professional of any sort, but I see a psychiatrist and psychologist and have been hospitalized numerous times for clinical depression. Much of the relevant therapy is concerned with knowing you are entering (or about to) depression of various depths, how to head it off at the pass, and in general how to get your daily shit together to live a life integrating ways to keep it at bay–all of which demands a “knowledge” of depression.
Even though, boy, once you’ve had a severe episode, you know it, intimately. But the slippery slope takes practice to recognize. So far so good.
But I must add, that for every depressive (I know nothing about psychopaths), when in the depths, when people, friends, shrinks, say “you’ll pass through this” you do not believe them. Even “well-trained” rational, studied-up depressives. Such is the nature of the disease.
I was hoping you’d see this thread, as I knew you would have some insight, being a prison doc and all.