Today, a Republican state representative in Ohio called for the murder of anyone supporting a trans child by tying a millstone around their neck and drowning them.
What nuance am I missing there?
Yeah, better we should go back to the old methodology when the best choice was always a white guy.
I guess we should respect and honour his valid point of view. Or some bullshit like that.
Only the stupid and/or malicious ones who supported a hate-filled conman rapist.
There certainly was a time for the traditional respectable mainstream Republican.
I ask our new friend:
In the primaries, will you be voting for trump or for one of the several non-traitor non-criminal candidates who hew at least mostly to traditional Republican values? If the former, how do you reconcile his hatred or disdain for everything a Reagan Republican (I was one) held dear?
In that same primary, will you be voting for MAGA or traditional senators or reps if the opportunity arises? Again, if the former, how can you reconcile that with your heartfelt traditional conservative views?
In the event trump wins the R nomination, will you vote an R slate except vote Biden for president to prevent the destruction of the US constitution by a known already-traitorous criminal who’s announced he intends to become a dictator? If not and you vote for trump, how can you justify that under your “conservative” values? There is nothing conservative about voting for a totalitarian / kleptocratic takeover of the USA.
You sound like a smart and thoughtful guy. Time to put your vote where your mouth seems to be.
It’s not about their viewpoints. They are free to believe whatever they want. It’s their actions that make them those things.
You keep making this tired, old point that Democrats won’t try to understand Republicans’ concerns. How many “middle America diner” stories have there been in the last eight years? Hundreds? Thousands? The idea that Democrats just need to understand those poor victimized Republicans has been played to death. How many times have Republicans tried the same thing? Has any one of them ever said “we just need to sit down, talk to the Democrats and try to understand where they are coming from”? Never happens. It’s always put on the Democrats to be empathic, conciliatory and compromising. We tried that and Republicans just don’t care at best and take advantage of it at worst. After eight years, I see their actions and understand them very well.
You want to talk about name-calling? Seriously? Are you familiar with Trump? Here’s one small example.
I don’t want to hear any more about how the country is running from those who are pouring sugar in its gas tank and throwing roofing nails on the political roads. These arguments might have had a shadow of legitimacy five or six years ago, but putting forth these hackneyed points this late in the game is just insulting.
Thanks for asking. I’m not a Republican, I’m an Independent (I’m actually a member of Andrew Yang’s Forward Party, but we won’t be running a candidate for President this year). Voted for Gary Johnson in 2016, Biden in 2020 (though I strongly preferred Amy Klobuchar), and currently have seven people in line for my vote ahead of either Trump or Biden, led by Dean Phillips, followed by Joe Manchin (if he runs as a member of the No Labels group), Robert F Kennedy Jr and then any of those Republican folks not named Trump (there’s no particular order at present though I’m watching each debate). Like the Forward Party, I’m opposed to the current primary system run by the Rep/Dems that caters to the extremes and presents us with unsavory choices come election time.
I’m no fan of the Republican Party, much less Trump, but I am a fan of cordial discourse and getting to know what others think/believe. I find often as not the tone and flavor of those interactions tell a lot about people and their core values, even more than the words they say. That’s been true on this board as well.
Jane Goodall once said, “If you don’t talk to people, how can you expect them to change?” I find the people who refuse to talk to those with differing views either don’t have a very good argument to make or don’t care what others think. Both are problematic.
I fear for the future of this country, and my interactions here only increased that concern. I move on hoping to find calmer waters (I’ve worn my keyboard to a frazzle) and to hear what others elsewhere have to say.
We can vote for better, or we can vote for criminally worse…and you see that as two sides of the same coin?
As a whole, these people have been telling me “fuck your feelings” for years. There are people I know, some of my relatives, whom I no longer respect because of their continued support of Donald Trump. In truth, I have contempt for most of them. I have no desire to be nice or treat them with respect because they’re not willing to act like civilized people.
I’m not sure I know how to be nice about this stuff at this stage of the game. The whole third party thing is a joke. Also, the “independent” thing. I’m not a Democrat because the Democratic party is the Platonic ideal of an American party. I’m a Democrat because it’s close enough to my values, is serious about trying to govern, and it can win.
Why isn’t that genius Mr. Yang running himself?!
Well, thanks for voting for Biden in 2020.
But… Joe Manchin?! The man is a self-involved idiot. No Labels is a Punch and Judy show at best, a Republican front at worst. What a joke. I’m not even gonna touch RFK Jr.
If you think the Democrats represent some sort of “extreme,” then I don’t know what to tell you. It would be a slightly right-of-center party in most other countries.
Look, you seem nice enough but there is a point you are either ignoring or not getting: Trump isn’t normal and is fucking unacceptable. This whole thread with its “tone and flavor” would not be happening if we were talking about Mitt Romney or some such politician with a shred of decency. Hell, in the 1770s we had a revolution and declared independence over people and policies that were far less polarizing than Trump and Trumpism (I mean that literally). You have your undies in a twist over our (to you) seeming unwillingness to understand MAGAs, but you don’t seem to get the concept of Trump having (to us) that level of unacceptability.
The “core values” I’m espousing here are “don’t be a fucking nazi” and “don’t try to overthrow the US government and replace it with an autocracy.” These are about as basic as American values get. It’s not fucking complicated!
FFS. Just FYI, if you want to find calmer waters, you are going to have to go outside the US. This country is on the verge of an offline implosion–all thanks to Trump and his brownshirts.
Thank you for your candor.
All of those are fully respectable intellectual positions. As was 1980s Republicanism. In a country with a modern sensible electoral system, I believe ideas such as Yang’s would be a lot more popular and garner a lot more votes. Including probably with many people you’ve interacted with here in the last couple of days.
As long as you’re clear that come November, any vote for anyone other than Biden is a de facto vote for trump. Which itself is a vote to suspend the constitution and usher in a dictatorship at worst or a Ferdinand Marcos-style personal kleptocracy at best.
If you can’t see the difference between governing policies that are more or less contiguous with the past 60 years but that you dislike at the margins (the standard D platform), and throwing away the whole damned country, well gawd help us all if that’s what “independent” thinking looks like.
I wish you, and all Americans, wisdom as we lurch into the future.
Yes, this whole “There are reasons to disagree with the Democrats” line is disingenuous.
“The Democrats won’t cut taxes on the rich. I guess I have to vote for the guy who tried to overthrow democracy!”
“The Democrats won’t ban mail-in voting. I guess I have to vote for the guy who tried to overthrow democracy!”
“The Democrats wanted to put a Black woman on the Supreme court. I guess I have to vote for the guy who tried to overthrow democracy!”
“The Democrats won’t ban abortion in all cases, nation-wide. I guess I have to vote for the guy who tried to overthrow democracy!”
“The Democrats won’t deport every single immigrant, regardless of their particular circumstances. I guess I have to vote for the guy who tried to overthrow democracy!”
At some point, these complaints become absurd, and only an idiot would come to these conclusions.
And here, you ignore the fact that a lot of people here (just look back in this thread, you’ll find some) were Republicans (or other sorts of conservatives, for non-American folks), who did talk to the current crop of extremists. We’ve watched the conservative movements spiral down the drain into the crazy, conspiracy theory mindset over the last few decades, and we’ve tried to stop it by doing exactly that - talking to these people and trying to convince them they’re on the wrong path.
None of it has worked. They just keep getting worse; crazier, ruder and more arrogant.
I have watched most of my family (including my parents who raised me to be an anti-racist, anti-sectarian, compassionate person) descend into some kind of paranoid, hateful, greedy group of people in a process that started with Obama’s election and accelerated when Trump emerged.
I mean, I can see the Facebook posts over the last 15 years and the changes are incredible.
Many of them would be cheering the beating of Rodney King if it was happening right now. If they could get away with it, they’d vandalize electric cars and chargers. Cheating on taxes is seen as an act of patriotism. They are attacking the Catholic Church for being too woke.
I have a brother who was ready to be fired for giving his employee meal to a homeless person 30 years ago, and is now rejoicing when migrants drown at sea or die of thirst in the desert because that’s the deterrent we need.
As one of those former Republicans, they rejected me. When I voiced opposition to Trump, it was made very clear that I wasn’t welcome. It didn’t matter that I might agree with them on a great many conservative issues, that I wouldn’t kneel before Trump was enough to label me a RINO. I do agree we need to understand how they think simply because they are so numerous we have little choice but to deal with them. But I don’t sympathize with them, I don’t respect them, and they need to be confronted everywhere because they’re little bubbles prevent other ideas for getting through to them.
You’ve got it backward. Trump is not the mastermind, he’s the lackey. There is no mastermind (currently). The admin doesn’t serve Trump; they’re a bunch of favor-trading opportunists. They were completely uncoordinated and grab-asstic in the first term, but no doubt they’ve gained experience and learned from it.
As an actual miller I would be only slightly less sad about the loss of life, and the loss of a millstone. Those things are hard to make.
(This said, mostly tounge in cheek. Making millstones requires incredible skills in stone masonary, but I dont value a well blanced stone over human life)
As to the the OP’s title of this thread - I don’t think Trump and his base want the country to survive his re-election. At least, not it if it means something other than going back to the “good old days”. I sincerely believe they’d be happy with a dictator who imposed their idea of “Christian values” and got rid of all those people who didn’t look and think like them.
And having discourse with the other side? Its my belief that trying to have a rational discussion with someone who doesn’t have even basic critical thinking skills is a complete waste of time. It is also my belief that this describes the Trumpers that moderate Rs (if there any left) are so afraid of. Remember, for most politicians, getting re-elected is their number one priority and will do whatever it takes to remain in office, including backing the biggest fraudster and wannnabe king our country has ever seen. Its not even party over country. Its me over everything else.
I have an extremely dubious theory about these Republicans who support Trump; it’s like they are thinking well, we know he’s a danger and rather nuts, but we’ll put advisors around him and keep him on a short leash. If that’s anyway near true they may have an unpleasant surprise.