Do we have less compassion for the poor?

In My Humble Opinion
81

Or living with the mother of their children.

No, they are not. Comparisons of black fathers who aren’t married to their children’s mother to white or Hispanic fathers who aren’t married to their children’s mother are missing the point rather badly. Fathers who are married to their children’s mother do a better job raising their children, as measured by practically every social measure - income, school performance, criminal history, employment, emotional health, etc. There are lots more white fathers who are married to their children’s mothers than black ones. Most black children do not have the stable, long-term presence of a father in their home.

A father is not “just as active” in his children’s life if he isn’t co-parenting just because he calls him on the phone once a week.

It isn’t at all surprising that the liars at ThinkProgress or Mother Jones are trying to use smoke and mirrors to pretend that things aren’t what they are. That’s what they deal in.

Are you asserting that the Heritage article demonstrates that black fathers mostly abandon their children so that their children and girlfriends can collect welfare? That was the assertion. Is that what you are saying. A simple Yes or No will do fine.

Regards,
Shodan

82

Actually “don’t have children until you are married and can support them without welfare”.

And I think we are bumping up against something I mentioned before - most people don’t think, or at least I don’t think, that not getting pregnant when you are 17 is such a high hurdle to surmount. Somehow or other, most people seem to manage it. Therefore it generally makes sense to wonder why some people can’t seem to do so.

If you are old enough to have sex, you are old enough to be responsible and use a condom. If you are not responsible enough to use a condom, you are not old enough to have sex. Adult decisions have adult consequences, that’s why they are adult decisions. It does no good to simply shrug your shoulders and say “ohy well you made a dumb mistake”. There are dumb mistakes, and really dumb mistakes, and really dumb mistakes mark you are likely to be the sort of person who is going to fuck up motherhood as badly as you did adolescence. So if we seem to make decisions that treat you as an idiot child, that has largely to do with the fact that you acted like an idiot child.

I don’t know what this means. People have to be smart about their money. That’s what adults do. Being poor does not mean you don’t have to be smart about your money - it means that if you aren’t smart, the consequences are going to be worse for you.

We have covered this before - something like 75% of all poor households in the US do not have a fullt-time, year-round worker. Therefore a lot of complaints about how busy you are working ring more than slightly hollow.

Did you know that since 1964, the US government has spent (in constant dollars) more than three times as much on anti-poverty programs (not including Social Security or Medicare) than it did on every war in US history since the American Revolution? (Cite.)

Who are you talking about that is starving in the streets?

Regards,
Shodan

83

Well, of course…because you know all about this guy’s position, choices, circumstances, fate, etc. since you are omniscient and telepathic to boot.
Why aren’t you famous?

84

Yeah, we have terrible sex-education in schools and people are surprised and shocked when people accidentally get pregnant? People consistently try and shut down or de-fund services that provide birth control for those without insurance, and we are surprised when people get pregnant? No, we didn’t set these people up for failure by refusing to teach them and then refusing them birth control (that we may not have even taught them about). It’s totally, completely, utterly, the fault of all these young women that they’re pregnant. They should have known better even though we stacked the deck to try and keep them from knowing better. It couldn’t be a lack of education, a lack of resources, social pressure, religion, and plain old bad luck combined. Noooo, these are not important factors…

And let’s face it. Sometimes when the oops happens, it’s better for everyone if that oops goes away through medical intervention. But we all know how divided that is, and the huge amount of pressure put on women about it and how they are judged for it. Or all the ever-mounting hurdles they must get through if they make the “bad” decision of making the oops go away. How far away the clinic that provides this service for the uninsured might be. It’s not surprising if she decides to keep the child in the face of all the roadblocks put in her way, despite the fact that it is a “poor financial decision”.

If unplanned pregnancies are really dragging the poor down so much, we should be fighting tooth and nail to get them education, birth control, and options. But apparently the American public is more concerned about pointing fingers, calling people stupid, and taking the moral high ground than actually helping.

85

I’m not answering you line by line, because i hate that form of answering. I just want to clarify a couple things you asked about:

I actually totally agree with you about the kids thing. Don’t have kids until you can support them off welfare. I am also aware that our sex education is terrible in lots of place and that 12-14 is a terrible time to learn anything. I had sex education but I needed to have it a lot more before I was really mature enough to “get it”.

Teens are notoriously not good at thinking about the future. And then of course we don’t like teens to have abortions. We want them to have the child. Having children is a beautiful thing! So says everyone. So I am not shocked when the inevitable happens and a teen gets pregnant. I don’t like it, but now we have a baby on our hands, and what are we to do? I don’t want to let that baby starve.

Secondly, about the busy thing. No, I don’t think that everyone has all of the time in the world, nor do I think they are working all of the time. But let’s take my cousins. My Auntie works full time. So that is six days a week. She works from like 8 in the morning to 6:30 pm at night. She comes home every day and cooks for her family. So she doesn’t settle down until maybe 8 pm. She has one day off a week. Her husband is old school and won’t lift a finger to do chores. The kids used to; they are off at college now.

She has one day a week to maybe research community opportunities. She is just not going to do it. Not to mention that those things have a sea of white and black faces, and as a minority, she just wouldn’t feel welcome.

Thirdly, being smart about your money. Yes, that is what adults do - but sometimes it takes time to learn. You don’t instantly get smart. Some people are really smart, some people are really stupid. I know, because I have been one of the ones that wasn’t smart, and now am. I had a hard time in my twenties. Now I did one of the things you recommend, and never had children, so I managed to pull myself out. But I was strong enough to stand up to pressure from every side to not have children. And there is a hell of a lot of pressure to do so!

As to the comment about starving in the streets, I’m just saying I don’t want that. So I don’t mind paying for sustenance programs. I really don’t.

86

Wow. I had no idea that this sort of problem even existed. I had just assumed that all charities gave to anyone in need.
What do these religious charities do—make you state that you’re a Christian or that you have a church membership somewhere? I am truly and sincerely curious because it is so confounding.

87

“Charity” includes a nameplate at ye olde alma mater, you know. It includes a new steeple on your megachurch, too.

88

I can totally buy that Americans are more charitable than ever.

But I don’t think this translates into more compassion for the poor.

There are so many charities out there. We’re constantly bombarded by fundraising efforts. Yesterday I was moved to donate to an international charity by an article on reddit. If I was on Facebook, I’d probably be moved to give to each and every “awareness” campaign. My workplace puts on a big charitable giving campaign every year which I help organize. Most of my coworkers donate to animal, cancer, and environmental causes. The food bank also gets a lot of help, but not the smaller charities that also serve the destitute, like the diaper bank or the free clinic. I think the assumption is that these needs are already addressed by government programs. And also, cute puppies are innocent and blameless. Poor people are not.

89

It’s not common. I’ve been involved in numerous church-based charities and not one of them cared a wit what one’s religion was. The Salvation Army, one of the largest religious charities, doesn’t care.

90

In my experience , the larger ones ( Salvation Army, Catholic Charities, Episcopal Social Services, etc ) don’t care. Some of the smallest ( individual churches running a soup kitchen or a tiny homeless shelter) sort of do- they don’t care if you have a pre-existing church membership , but they do care if you participate in the religious activities that are sort of bundled with the services like praying before the meal or listening to a sermon before bed.

91

I have no idea how common it is for faith-baith charities to deny services to people based on religious grounds. But I did find this article about one shelter’s treatment of married same-sex couples and transgendered people.

92

I was once part of a congregation that served meals. A sermon was part of the meal as well as soliciting further chances to prostelytize. Which we did follow up by going by the house or wherever, in a few cases beneath freeways and the like.

93

Are the poor really asking for Iphones? I thought they were begging for Obamaphones, which are your standard five dollar Tracphone with 60 minutes a month.

Or so I hear.

94

What are they counting as “anti-poverty programs” if not Medicare and Social Security. I’d imagine the usual suspects such as AFDC, food stamps, Medicaid, and so forth but what else falls under Heritage’s criteria.

Also the United States, since the Revolution has been at war for 46 years and the costs have been lower in pre-20th Century wars for obvious reasons such as there being far fewer pieces of advanced weaponry which costs far more than a cannon or a rifle.

95

I had the greatest opportunity to work for a faith-based charity in Memphis called Neighborhood Christian Center. They didn’t deny anyone anything they could help them with, from basic food staples to helping with utility bills. First come first serve for the most part and all you have to do is ask. No preaching, no praying unless one asked. And people asked a lot. They asked ME and I just directed them to one of our more theistically inclined workers. They are such compassionate people it changed my view on Christian charities completely. I’m sure there are plenty who require you to attend services, but the ones I’ve been to and worked with haven’t done any such thing. I’ve had to get help too. Never a prayer, a push, or even a pamphlet.

96

Not to mention the donation is frequently tax-deductible.

97

Christian charities, particularly in the US, are the gold standard.

As a secularist agnostic, I don’t hesitate to acknowledge this. Many, many nonreligious liberals refuse to accept this, because they need to feel that atheism is morally superior to belief in the Christian God.

98

That’s NOT what I said.

I proposed a situation where it would make sense for a man to live separate from his wife and children. I never stated it was “usual” or “common”. That is YOUR spin. Seriously, go back and re-read my post.

What about widowed parenthood?

What about people abandoned by their spouses?

What about people who had money when they had kids but then fell on hard times?

You state that most people do not remain poor their whole lives or stay poor, but you seem unable to wrap your head around the notion tha**t when middle-class people with kids fall on hard times they can’t simply stash the kids in a storage unit until things are better.

I was physically capable of becoming pregnant at the age of 11 - do you seriously think I was in any way capable of making adult decisions or being responsible at that age? Yet the urges were there, and the capability was there. Which is how we wind up with pregnant 12 year olds (than Og I wasn’t one, but then, my parents started talking to me about the “birds and the bees” quite early in life. They hadn’t for my older sisters, who wound up being quite the high school slut. She’s damn lucky she didn’t have a kid or two before 20).

IF we had real sex education AND we had it at a useful age (before puberty, in other words, when ages are still in the single digits) AND teens had free access to effective birth control and sexual health services AS WELL AS be exhorted to wait until their 20’s/marriage/whatever I’d say there more basis to wag a finger and say shame, shame - but the truth is we don’t have any of that in this country which is how we wind up with kinds becoming parents before they are old enough to drive.

I suppose we could back to the old ways where slutty girls who got pregnant too soon were kicked to curb, their kids taken away, and the little sluts relegated to being the village whores but sorry, I don’t see that as a good solution, either.

How about we try sex re-education, subsidized day care while these mothers-too-soon finish their education and/or start careers, with the fathers-too-soon being held at least financially accountable for their contribution to the problem?

In 2008 I was told that, in addition to the 20 hours a week I was working I would have to spend at least 30 hours looking for more/better work or lose my benefits. By my calculation that was 50 hours a week - of course, that’s just one anecdote, but how busy you are can be more than just how many hours you get paid for.

So?

Is that really a problem? I mean, do you want MORE war? Don’t we have an obligation to help our fellow citizens who are in need? Does the preamble to the Constitution not have the phrase “promote the general welfare”?

I have been told solely on the basis of my surname that I should go to “your own people for help”, meaning I should seek out a Jewish charity rather than a Christian one. This is also the church that blathered on about how all are welcome but when they found out I was half Jewish told me I should be going to the “evangelical Jews” (Jews for Jesus) rather than attending their church.

I have been asked directly to state that I am Christian. I prefer not to lie and stated I was not. I was then taken to a room and subjected to nearly an hour and a half of hard sell conversion lectures about how I was going to hell and being a heathen was why I was unemployed and poor and if I just accepted Jesus I’d be wealthy. When I was finally able to leave the minister tried to grab my arm and drag me over the baptism place, saying it would only take a second and it wouldn’t hurt. They later sent a group to my home, banging on our door at 7 am, waking my ill husband, and wouldn’t leave until I called the police and had them removed for trespassing.

I have been asked to produce a baptismal certificate prior to receiving services. This would be difficult, as I have never been baptised.

I wish to state that not ALL Christian charities conduct themselves in this manner but some most certainly do. If you are Christian you probably don’t see the overzealous and the bigots. There is, in fact, a local Christian charity I do do business with (I’m trying to unload possessions I don’t need anymore but are still useful to someone) because they don’t discriminate, they aren’t proselytizing assholes, and they don’t have a religious criteria for helping people.

Good lord - I fear people like that. My religion forbids proselytizing, we find it highly offensive and coercive.

I mean, sure, if I’m in your house, or your God’s house, and it’s custom to have a sermon before the meal that’s fine, I’m OK with that, but coming to my home? Holy crap, this is why I hate giving out my address.

I had a local church move in down the block. The first Sunday they were in business it was BANG! BANG! BANG! on the door every 15 minutes from 7 am to noon “HAVE YOU HEARD THE GOOD NEWS JESUS DIED FOR YOUR SINS HALLELUIA!!!” This was back when my spouse was still able to work, and he worked nights. He had gone to bed at 4 am an hour after he got home from work. He was near homicidal by 10 am.

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think “Obamaphones” are the latest smartphones. They’re just Tracphones.

99

:dubious:
What church was this, and where?

:dubious:
Which soup kitchens?

100

Well to be fair, we proselytized at every opportunity. As people came in we would give them a card to fill out but it wasn’t mandatory to get a meal. Quite a few “customers” were working poor on their lunch breaks. Our church was in the Downtown area and it would turn really sketchy at night. We would try to convert the working girls and "girls"and whomever was hanging around, think Johns and Pimps (small p variety). But this is starting to be a hijack. I was just supporting your statement that some churches do do this. Personally I find Catholic Charities exemplary in every way and frequently recommend them to people in need.