Hey, I was angry at Jesus (or more accurately, the religions that bear his name) long before I became an atheist. Being Jewish and reading about the pogroms does that for you.
I think the “angry at God” bit is somewhat more subtle than you give it credit for. It goes like this.
God, if he exists, is a real sob drowning people and the like. The God of pretty much all western religions is a nice guy who wouldn’t randomly drown people. Therefore, there is good reason to lack belief in this god. God being hateful is a premise used to demonstrate that there is reason to lack belief, once you do that you abandon the hate God premise, just as you abandon the premise in a proof by contradiction.
Generally, if someone tells me they believe something, I’ll believe that they consciously believe it. But sometimes their actions will not be in accord with their beliefs, which makes me suspect that they don’t subconsciously believe it.
You have a number of misconceptions.
It’s possible to not believe in god, while not believing that god does not exist. That is, lack of belief is not necessarily a belief in and of itself.
Believing that god doesn’t exist isn’t a belief system. A belief system is a group of connected beliefs, not just a single belief.
It doesn’t take faith to not believe in god anymore than it takes faith to not believe in the tooth fairy.
Belief systems don’t need faith. Most political ideologies, for example, are belief systems, but don’t necessarily require faith.
If you wish to discuss/debate these, you should start a new thread since this is off-topic.
You’re lumping together a few things that are logically consistent with atheism and one big thing that isn’t. There’s nothing inconsistent with an atheist hating the teachings of the bible or the catholic church or all muslims. But an atheist can’t hate god because doing so would necessarily mean he’s not an atheist.
It’s not a No True Scotsman case either - not believing in god is the one and only requirement to atheism, so you can’t hate god and be an atheist.
It’s certainly possible for an atheist to hate god in the subjunctive mood - “If there were a god, I would hate him for letting babies be born with no brains or with Tay-Sachs disease.”
But that is extremely different from saying “I hate that god allows babies to be born with no brains or with Tay-Sachs disease.” No atheist could say the latter example because it implies they believe god exists.
I think the idea the OP is trying to espouse is some self proclaimed athiest really aren’t Athiests at all. They are believers in a state of denial because of their anger issues with God. Their way of acting out is “I’M AN ATHIEST DMMIT!!”
So I’d say it’s less of a lie and more of a denial.
I would be amazed if less than half the people in high elective office (or their enablers) weren’t lying about their religious beliefs. It is inconceivable to me that someone like Dick Cheney or Karl Rove is a sincere Christian. And I kind of doubt Obama takes it very seriously, either.
Just to point out that it’s not a universal truth; our current PM John Key “attends church frequently but is agnostic when it comes to belief in God. He has stated that he does not believe in an afterlife…” (wiki) and his predecessor Helen Clark was an atheist (or very agnostic, or something similar). This sort of personal belief may be an impediment to office in the US but is pretty normal in some countries.
Pretty much this. It’s never occured to me to think an atheist was lying or “deluding themselves” but Wiccans and Scientologists… that’s when in the back of my mind I’m thinking “come on, really?”
In my experience many believers conflate the concept of ‘belief’ with that of ‘worship’.
In 7th grade I told a sympathetic friend that I was an athiest. Somehow it got out to the whole school. They all thought I worshipped satan.
Their ‘logic’ was that if I didn’t believe in (meaning ‘worship’) god then I must believe in (‘worship’) satan. So as far as they could understand, I knew that there was a god, but had chosen to align myself with his enemy.
I never could quite get across to any of them that ‘believe’ in this case means ‘think exists’, no matter how many times I told them that I could not worship satan as there was no such thing.
I don’t believe there is a pink elephant in my living room. I suppose its entirely possible that there is one hiding under the sofa or behind the curtains, but it would not fit the description of a pink elephant as I understand it.
Somehow, despite this lack of belief in a pink elephant, I go through life fairly happy and seemingly well adjusted. I don’t dwell on it. It doesn’t define me.
Are there pink elephants outside of my living room? Its hard to say. I’ve heard drunks talk about them, but I’ve never seen one. I’ve seen grey elephants, but they weren’t pink elephants. Parts of them were pink, like the insides of their mouths and trunks, but they were still mostly not pink, so I think I’m pretty safe calling them grey elephants.
I’ve seen a statute of a pink elephant that some people called a pink elephant, but it wasn’t really a live pink elephant, so I don’t think it counts.
Religious people and atheists both fear god, but don’t believe in him. Everything else is just for show. Atheists lie that they could commit any atrocity with no fear or doubt about punishment after death, and theists lie that they truly believe they will survive their own deaths.
In a related matter, everyone in the world thinks exactly like me, but won’t admit it.
I have not once met anyone I would consider a true xtian, catholic, jew, etc. You have a job? Well, you don’t follow Jesus then. Let your wife vote? Heathen!
Religion is polytheistic. The guy sitting next to you at church worships his own idea of a Jesus, god, what have you. No one does everything that a religion claims gives you righteousness. Believers cut more corners than most.
Although atheism is NOT a religion, I do consider myself a poly-atheist. There are many gods I don’t believe in.
You still don’t have to worry about me, though. I will never hit you, I will never steal from you, if I owe you money I’ll pay it back pronto and if you need a hand at almost anything, just text or Facebook me. All this and no god or religion taught me these things.
Because it profits them to do so. Claiming to believe in a god or gods, or in a set of locally popular dogma can often be advantageous.
Perhaps some do, but I certainty don’t lie. I have as much fear of the afterlife as I do of Santa Claus sneaking into my home on Christmas Eve and strangling me to death.
I’m sure you THINK you have a point, but I can’t see what it is.
You want to point to somewhere in Scripture where Jesus said, “Women mustn’t vote”?
Now, as a practical matter, NOBODY could vote in Jesus’ day. In 30 AD, most nations were ruled by monarchs or tyrants of one type or another, and MEN didn’t get to take part in elections, either!
As for jobs, Jesus’ dad had one. He was a carpenter. Peter, James and John had jobs- they were fishermen.
So, while you seem very pleased with yourself, I’m curious as to what you think you’ve proven.
I’m not sure I know any Christian who believes that those assertions are consistent with the teachings of Jesus. So it’s no surprise you don’t see a lot of Christians that don’t follow those rules.
This is a very loose definition of polytheism as to essentially be worthless. It’s possible to believe in God and not agree on all of the specifics. Obviously, if two people disgree enough, one could argue they don’t believe in the same god, but everyone’s perspective is always going to be slightly different. Hell, pick anyone and ask their parents to describe that person independently, chances are, those descriptions will be at least slightly different. Does that mean they’re both describing a different person?
I have no reason to doubt your claim. Though I do think your whole polytheism/poly-atheism thing is sort of… well, missing the point.
There is an apologetic that rejects the idea that people can legitimately be atheists. Their view is that the atheist is suppressing the truth of God. They back these beliefs up with scripture.
Needless to say, I think they are full of shit, but they are out there.
It seems just basic human respect to take you at your word as to what you ‘believe’. And until you act/demonstrate/manifest behaviour that conflicts with what you profess to ‘believe’, I have no reason to question what you’ve told me.
But it’s kind of a two way street. I’m willing to believe you are a good Christian, as you claim, right up until I see you judging your fellow ‘non believers’ to be lesser creatures, in some way. Then I begin to suspect that you might not be the ‘good’ Christian you claim to be. Ditto with cafeteria Christians; one true book/word believers who are hateful to others, that sort of thing.
