And this mystic, collective, unconscious consciousness (or conscious unconsciousness?) somehow manages to ensure that a construction worker dropped a nail, so your tire went flat, making you miss the train that would have gotten you to the interview that would have been the job of a lifetime, because you’re really better staying in your hometime and serving on the local board to protect and further the well-being of hermit crabs? Because that’s the kind of thing I hear talked about as “Everything happens for a reason.” (Well, not quite, but you get my point)
Even assuming that we are, as the Minbari say, the Universe discovering or inventing itself, ‘everything happens for a purpose’ assumes a degree of attention to minutiae that I find highly implausible. Alternatively, it suggests a mystic mechanism by which the ‘fact’ that our collective consciousness, harmoniously pursuing a single goal, is incapable of allowing anything to happen that does not further that goal. To which I respond, “cite?” You can call it God or collective unconscious or George for that matter, but it’s still an Invisible Pink Unicorn to me.
OK, you might say the first time an odd occurence happens, that’s an “event” or “instance”. Then, this odd occurence rears its head again in some manner, not always identical, that hints at a pattern. You say it’s just “coincidence”. Now, that same odd occurence passes through your life a third, fourth, fifth time… Suddenly, you cannot help but wonder what else is at work here?
I cannot prove everything happens for a reason. Perhaps most events are mere “white noise” in our lives. But then, some events (often unfolding over time) really makes you wonder. Such events get classified as synchronicities,
it is often a personal experience which one must judge for themselves.
Some very odd occurences have happened in my life which are much too structured (as revealed over time) to be just random chance. And sometimes, such events are not always the bearers of good news or welcomed circumstances.
Well, then perhaps you should stop assuming so much, like assuming that it requires an attention to minutiae. Or like assuming you know or can determine what the purpose is.
Why would we pursue a single goal? It would be more logical to postulate multiple goals that change regularly (or irregularly) as the degree of perceived information changes. Why push it to the extremes? Where do we see this type of extremes in other collective processes? We don’t. We see negotiation.
In IMHO? Are you kidding? You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine, ad infinitum. But, if you are going to use ridcule and extreme examples as a foundation for your debating technique, your opinion won’t weigh in very much.
I look at the world, at the process of evolution, and I see cooperative processes advancing development of species over the long term. I also see apparent blunders that lead to dead ends, which, incidently, end up as fodder for the development of others. Nothing is wasted. In most other things the micro reflects the macro. We may not be able to predict happenings or reason, and we may not be able to determine even what the reasons are in all cases.
If you look at existance as some sort of big accident, then why not push the button and end it all for everyone? It’s just an accident, it doesn’t matter, it doesn’t have any purpose, so what’s the difference?
If you look at existance as having purpose, that here is some goal to be attained, that even the smallest things factor into that goal and various other sub-goals and even opposing goals, you enable youself to set aside chaos and become a part of creation. Then you have a reason for preserving it.
Maybe that nail in my tire was to delay me. Maybe it was there for someone to notice and tell me about it. Maybe it was there just to let the air out of my tire. maybe it was there to remind me to sweep up my garage (most likely). I am sure of one thing: it was not there because Chaos decided to nail my tire for no reason.
Perhaps we create reason after the fact.
I cannot believe that we live in a meaningless Universe.
Gee, even you had a purpose. You stimulated me to expand upon my beliefs for the benefit of some few here who needed to hear what I had to say.
I believe I dumped both of those life theories before I was 14, since they were so inherently wrong and naive.
If you want to think the universe has an inherent meaning, and that everything happens for some mystical purpose, go ahead. You’ll inherit the earth… in a plot 6’ x 3’.
Now, if you want to take this meaningless universe that started with no purpose whatsoever, and make something of it and yourself, that’s a challenge begging to be met.
But please, don’t go cowering behind the phrase “I can’t believe that all of this has no reason”. That’s just being a gullible cowardly child hiding behind your mama’s apronstrings.
We will all inherit that 6’ x 3’ plot, no matter what we believe. Except for those of us that have foresight enough to realize the waste of burial, and choose to be cremated.
Making something of yourself in the Universe does not require a belief in meaninglessness. In fact a drive to determine purposes and learn from them comes from a belief in purpose. If it’s all meaningless and purposeless, why bother? It don’t, and won’t mean anything!
But I detect fear in your convictions. Why must you lower yourself to ridicule of others’ beliefs to put forth yours? Are you still trying to convince yourself? Or is it so important for you that everyone else believe as you do that you stoop to bigotry, ridicule, namecalling, denigration to put down the views of others?
It’s most interesting that two of the people who defend the idea that the Universe has no purpose must resort to ridicule to defend it.
How many times has odd things happened to you that you don’t remember? How many odd things happened to you that amounted to nothing? I’d bet a fair amount, but they don’t make an impression on you, so you don’t remember. Instead, what you remember are the times when random events and coincidences happened to lead to a desirable outcome. How many welcomed circumstances have happened without odd events proceding them? Do you remember all of those?
It’s possible, but that doesn’t make “it happened for a reason” less annoying.
WhenI was 16 we moved to California. I was upset about this move. I had a pretty decent life for myself in California. My parents said “Everything happens for a reason” as though that was justification enough. And the move did happen for a reason. Two in fact.
1)My grandparents were selling their property where our house was
2) My Dad found a better job in California.
As far as reasons go, those weren’t too bad. Now you can look at that move and in hindsite see that it was good for me. If I hadn’t moved, I never would have gone to school in So Cal, and I love my school and life now. So my parents were right, right? Except, of course, if I had stayed in Utah, I would probably love my life just as much. Or things could have gone horribly wrong here. Or any other of a million things. Life isn’t one set path with a purpose and a guiding hand. It’s decisions, and any one odd decision could alter the course of your entire future. No purpose, no Karma, no fate, no destiny, just doing what you have to do.
Do you mean catechism?
I’m not Catholic, I’m an atheist.
But the standard reasoning behind the OP is that a Christian God has a plan. I merely pointed out there’s no evidence for that belief.
Well at least your beliefs aren’t ‘simplistic’. :rolleyes:
What is your definition of the ‘purpose’ that everything happens for?
What are our ‘collective goals’?
If I sneeze, how does that ‘reverberate throughout the cosmos affecting consciousness’?
If I knew all that, I’d be rich.
Gee, I am rich!
(Well, not George Sorous rich, but independently wealthy…)
Well, in that case:
a. There’s no ‘one purpose’ that everything happens for. There’s an infinity of purposes, one or more for each event.
b. Most of our ‘collective goals’ are survival oriented.
c. Depends on what germs you got in your sneeze… and other stuff.
You said ‘…but I believe in a purposeful existence (everything has or happens for a purpose)’.
Now you say there are ‘an infinity of purposes’.
Do you simply mean cause and effect? If I drop a cup and it breaks, what ‘purpose’ is involved?
You said ‘each thing we do reverberates throughout the cosmos affecting consciousness, changing it and guiding it toward our collective goals.’
Now you say ‘Most of our ‘collective goals’ are survival oriented.’
Do you mean as a species, or individually?
And how does ‘each thing we do’ affect survival?
Are you seriously claiming that if I sneeze, it ‘reverberates throughout the cosmos affecting consciousness, changing it and guiding it toward our collective goals’?
I think you need to reread my post Spirit, because based on your response, you’ve misunderstood me completely.
Fear in my convictions? No. I pointed out that those who believe everything happens for a reason do so out of fear. But if you think that my pointing out that the ‘initial reasoners’ are afraid makes me afraid, not them, well, you’ve got a novel interpretation.
Were you reading the same post that I wrote, that you quoted in entirety? I used a juicy example to illustrate my point, but that was hardly namecalling. And ridicule? More like pity for an adult who still believes in childhood ephemera reminiscent of the tooth fairy.
I’d like the world better if more people believed as I did-- they’d be less likely to go blowing themselves up because it was ordained by God. But I’m not going to “stoop” in an effort to convince others, because that’s not going to work.
No, I don’t believe things happen for a reason or purpose. I’m with the “coincidences” posters - for those who believe things do happen for a reason, I think they’re remember the sum of positive outcomes, while forgetting the negative ones, even though both happen at about the same frequency. When coincidences happened that resulted in a favorable outcome, you remember that, each time. When coincidences happen that result in a neutral or negative outcome, you don’t remember it or it doesn’t make an impression. Over a few years, voila - things happen for a reason.
'Course, I’m too close to a personal tragedy to even entertain the thought that things happen for a purpose. Because I simply cannot understand how someone/something/someentity could do this. To teach me a lesson? So that me and my family will see something else later down the road? Yeah, may you rot in hell too.
Please note - the last sentence is not directed at any poster. It’s directed at the agent of the “purpose” I’m supposed to notice.
Oh my. It seems so simple and obvious to me. I’ll expound:
First, let’s remember that I said I believe there is a purpose, not that I know what those purposes are. But let’s take your example:
You drop a cup and it breaks. This changes things. It may have made you more aware of how fragile cups are, and you subsequently might be more careful. Or, it may remind you that things have been going bad for you lately, and in anger you deliberately take out all your cups and smash them. In either case, or in any other possible case, you have altered your perception, which will tend to change your behaviour, and your changed behaviour will affect others with whom you interact. Perhaps blowing off steam will make you feel better and you’ll make a better impression on that cute potential significant other…
The immediate purpose of anything happening, in a human sense, is that it changes the perceiver – in some way, or direction, and/or in some degree.
I’m not positing a ‘Holy Puppeteer’ predetermining your fate and providing off-stage cues; you have freedom of choice, and you can learn from the outcomes surrounding you. Generally these ‘lessons’ will have the effect of improving your performance, but some are more dense than others.
Both. In our above example, perhaps you have learned to hold fragile cups more carefully, which means you will have to spend fewer dollars to replace your cups, which means you will be inherently richer, and perhaps better able to survive. Because of this, your children can learn from your role model and your guidance, and pass this pro-survival trait down to future generations. Of course, a bad, anti-survival choice could make it all go the other way as well. Most of our choices are ultimately survival oriented, though not necessarily all.
I never said this. Most things, not each thing.
An extreme example, but still defensible. You sneeze. You spread germs. Depending on the germs you can either strengthen the immune system of others or give them a life-threatening illness. Their susequent death or survival affects others, ad infinitum. Or perhaps the reason for your sneeze was just to clear out your nose so you’d be more pleasant as you walk into that job interview, which might effect whether you get the job or not. If you want the job, it furthers your goals, furthers your employer’s goals, furthers the consumers’ goals, and so on. Not that these goals are the same; your goals are more individualistic, your employer’s are more collective, and who knows about the consumer? Perhaps the consumer just wants self-gratification, perhaps they want to destroy the world. Certainly your sneeze did not destroy the world, but it could be a part of a process that manifested that destiny.
Why do I need evidence? This is IMHO! I wouldn’t touch this in GD!
I’ve re-read it several times. It appears we have a failure to communicate.
Why do you believe that? I believe everything happens for a reason and I don’t believe so out of fear. Maybe some people have some notion of a vengeful God, or whatever you are implying here, but I don’t, and not everyone does. Pointed out? I don’t think so; I think you hypothesized, or guessed.
My, how people can put words in one’s mouth. That’s not what I said, and not what I think. I hypothesized that since you are dealing with this subject so vehemently, on an emotional level, this illuminates that you have emotional issues attached to the subject for some reason, and the most obvious reason (which you brought up, BTW) is fear. I think you are afraid of something. Perhaps you are terrified that your interpretation might be wrong, so you resort to ridicule to defend it, rather than logic.
Yes, like:
You think this is normal discussion of points of view? What was your purpose in phrasing this in this manner? Calling someone “a gullible cowardly child hiding behind your mama’s apronstrings” in most arenas of discussion is considered denegrative namecalling. You are either trying to shame or embarass the other person. It’s quite immature to do such things in civil discussions, and quite rude, to boot!
There you go again. What am I to conclude about you, Barbarian? Are you just immature? Or are you ignorant of civil discussion? Or are you terrified out of your wits and grasping at insults to throw because you have no logic to use?
If you want to continue this discussion with me, you’re going to have to be civil, or I’m just going to start laughing at you. You are being quite ludicrous.
