Do you believe in ghosts and the paranormal?

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
201

[QUOTE=Lobohan]
Is there anything you don’t believe? :dubious:

Anywho, on topic: No I don’t believe in the paranormal. It’s only been a few hundred years, so I’m sure someone will find some evidence soon. Any day now…
[/QUOTE]

With spirit all things are possible, yes, I believe all things, and there is a good reason for it. I was just thinking ghosts have been seen by people since the beginning of recorded history. thousands of years. And some people still believe there is nothing to the sightings. Strange.

202

[QUOTE=lekatt]
How would you test them? It is meenie’s personal experience. I don’t think he is cheating mankind. Let mankind go find their own ghost. I can’t speak for meenie, but I would never allow my spiritual events to be tested. It is to fragile a thing, to serious a thing for that.
[/QUOTE]

The dice test suggested earlier in this thread, or a similar test using playing cards, would be very easy to perform to the satisfaction of one’s personal curiosity. Repeatability would confirm it’s likelihood of being an actual phenomenon, and not just a delusion of meenie’s.

203

[QUOTE=lekatt]
With spirit all things are possible, yes, I believe all things, and there is a good reason for it. I was just thinking ghosts have been seen by people since the beginning of recorded history. thousands of years. And some people still believe there is nothing to the sightings. Strange.
[/QUOTE]
There are a lot of stupid, quick to judge and ignorant people out there. Not to mention liars. Probably have been for all of recorded history I’d bet.

204

[QUOTE=jbstarr10]
Again - you have the ability, if you are right, to very simply prove that life after death is true (never mind talking to the dead, just to know for sure!). This could be the single greatest discover in the history of human kind!
[/QUOTE]
just in the interest of including an actual debate, here, I will point out that your claim makes a number of presuppositions.

First, obviously, is that there still may not be any afterlife (which is pretty much the point that Marcus/meenie7 has made). Most ghost tales are predicated on a belief that the ghost is a manifestation of psychic energy from a dead person who is afraid or too traumatized to “move on.” There are even two separate TV shows running right now for which this is a central plot point.
So, it is always possible that there is no afterlife, (the “light” could be the spirit’s perception of annihilation*), and learning that there are ghosts wandering about would simply give people false hope.

Second, nothing that meenie7 can do will “prove” the existence of Marcus (except to meenie7. No matter what evidence is proferred, someone will figure out a way to dismiss it. That is neither here not there regarding the reality of meenie7’s experiences, but it means that demands for proof are a waste of time. No one on this board is going to accept the word of another poster that some third party has verified meenie7’s tests and if the tests failed, they could actually be because Marcus did not want to be put on display, was afraid of cameras, felt meenie7 was betraying a trust, or for some other reason.

If you want to believe or disbelieve meenie7, that is your prerogative, but there is no point in making emotional pleas to take actions that just are not going to happen–and continuing down that path might be construed as harrassment.
(ivan astikov, take note of this paratgraph.)

  • lekatt, please do not rush in with an announcement that the “life” beyond the “light” is really, really true. It has no bearing on my comments which are intended to simply note that there is a logical flaw in jbstarr10’s claim.

Similarly, EVERYONE, I don’t care if folks want to debate the possibility of ghosts, but there is no need to make this a personal attack on meenie7.

205

Asking for proof for an incredible claim might be a waste of time, but I think asking for evidence is perfectly reasonable.

206

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
just in the interest of including an actual debate, here, I will point out that your claim makes a number of presuppositions.

First, obviously, is that there still may not be any afterlife (which is pretty much the point that Marcus/meenie7 has made). Most ghost tales are predicated on a belief that the ghost is a manifestation of psychic energy from a dead person who is afraid or too traumatized to “move on.” There are even two separate TV shows running right now for which this is a central plot point.
So, it is always possible that there is no afterlife, (the “light” could be the spirit’s perception of annihilation*), and learning that there are ghosts wandering about would simply give people false hope.

Second, nothing that meenie7 can do will “prove” the existence of Marcus (except to meenie7. No matter what evidence is proferred, someone will figure out a way to dismiss it. That is neither here not there regarding the reality of meenie7’s experiences, but it means that demands for proof are a waste of time. No one on this board is going to accept the word of another poster that some third party has verified meenie7’s tests and if the tests failed, they could actually be because Marcus did not want to be put on display, was afraid of cameras, felt meenie7 was betraying a trust, or for some other reason.

If you want to believe or disbelieve meenie7, that is your prerogative, but there is no point in making emotional pleas to take actions that just are not going to happen–and continuing down that path might be construed as harrassment.
(ivan astikov, take note of this paratgraph.)

  • lekatt, please do not rush in with an announcement that the “life” beyond the “light” is really, really true. It has no bearing on my comments which are intended to simply note that there is a logical flaw in jbstarr10’s claim.

Similarly, EVERYONE, I don’t care if folks want to debate the possibility of ghosts, but there is no need to make this a personal attack on meenie7.
[/QUOTE]

Good points, I don’t think I made any personal attacks, if I did I apologize.

I really think there is a reason her case is completely different than other ‘ghost stories’. She isn’t just saying she saw a spectral figure roaming a hallway after she woke up from a nap. She is claiming that she spends significant time having clear-cut communications with a dead person. Not in the cold reading sense of things ether - Marcus isn’t telling her he saw a movie that starts with a ‘W’.

I’ll agree that it wouldn’t positively prove anything - nothing ever does, but a simple controlled test of this claim would be the FIRST EVER TO BE PASSED of such a claim. It would certainly challenge my world view, and change my life. And I agree that no one would take a word on a message board - but there are many organizations that will test you fairly and record the results in a scientific manner. If you don’t like Randi there are plenty of regional orgainizations that would do it.

People like to say that skeptics will never change their mind - something like this could do it.

And yes, I know (and knew going in) exactly where this claim would end up - but I’m not one who will sit by and let fantastic claims go unanswered (especially in great debates) when they can be tested so easily.

207

I’d provide evidence if I wanted other people to believe me. Frankly tho, I don’t care. I don’t think I’ve told any stories on SDMB and I intend to keep it that way. Cynics will never be convinced, some people will believe anything, weird experiences frequently aren’t reproducible, etc. et al (ad nauseam).

208

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
…and learning that there are ghosts wandering about would simply give people false hope.
[/quote]
Lots of people are happy for any, even false, hope and they will sometimes willingly ignore their better judgement to get it. There are many people and enterprises that cater to them. As long as meenie7 does not attempt to profit from her experiences or start doing a Sylvia Browne, getting members in contact with their dead relatives, I will continue to view her stories with amusement.

After decades of reading “true” ghost stories I find Marcus nearly unique. Most “real” ghosts are, like Sampiro’s father and great aunt, kinda boring. They come in uninvited, set a spell, don’t add much if anything to the conversation, and leave. Sometimes they have a message “from beyond the grave” (cue the spooky music), but the people I know who claim to have encountered haints say they are totally confused and stupid past the point of being humanlike, wandering aimlessly or repeating pointless actions. Me, I don’t have no truck with dead folk and enjoy these tales as tales, though I’ll sometimes suspend my disbelief to make the stories more fun.

I have rarely read a “report” of anything like Marcus, with his movie addiction and ability to read. Similar stories smacked of having been (how can I phrase this gently?) either completely fabricated, based on third or fourth hand accounts, or produced by a feverish mind.

Maybe not all of us would be convinced, but a check for a million bucks made out to meenie7 by the JREF would go a long way. Perhaps Marcus is real but, based on the track record of such reports, I wouldn’t invest any emotion in his willingness to be tested and I certainly would not call him a “dick” or accuse meenie7 of anything beyond the crime of telling a cute, harmless story, even if that story is told in GD.

209

[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist]
I’d provide evidence if I wanted other people to believe me. Frankly tho, I don’t care.
[/QUOTE]

Well - very convenient for you.

[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist]
I don’t think I’ve told any stories on SDMB and I intend to keep it that way. Cynics will never be convinced, some people will believe anything, weird experiences frequently aren’t reproducible, etc. et al (ad nauseam).
[/QUOTE]

How do you know that someone will not be convinced if you will not provide the evidence? I’m sure there are people that would not be convinced, but do it for the people who would be (like me!).

I’ll ask you again - if you could execute the dice demonstration as I outlined it, would you really not show it to anyone? Would you really leave $1 million sitting on the table. :confused:

210

[QUOTE=Bobotheoptimist]
I’d provide evidence if I wanted other people to believe me. Frankly tho, I don’t care. I don’t think I’ve told any stories on SDMB and I intend to keep it that way. Cynics will never be convinced, some people will believe anything, weird experiences frequently aren’t reproducible, etc. et al (ad nauseam).
[/QUOTE]
I’d be convinced if someone presented compelling evidence. It’s funny that no one in history has ever done that.

211

[QUOTE=ivan astikov]
The dice test suggested earlier in this thread, or a similar test using playing cards, would be very easy to perform to the satisfaction of one’s personal curiosity. Repeatability would confirm it’s likelihood of being an actual phenomenon, and not just a delusion of meenie’s.
[/QUOTE]

Since this is a common occurance among spiritual people it is probable not a delusion. I see two problems with the test. If he should miss some of the numbers skeptics will say that proves Marcus doesn’t exist. Then if he gets everyone of them correct skeptics will say that is doesn’t prove the existance of Marcus. He probably knew by being a psychic or he could somehow see the numbers rolled. They would never accept it.

212

[QUOTE=tomndebb]
just in the interest of including an actual debate, here, I will point out that your claim makes a number of presuppositions.

First, obviously, is that there still may not be any afterlife (which is pretty much the point that Marcus/meenie7 has made). Most ghost tales are predicated on a belief that the ghost is a manifestation of psychic energy from a dead person who is afraid or too traumatized to “move on.” There are even two separate TV shows running right now for which this is a central plot point.
So, it is always possible that there is no afterlife, (the “light” could be the spirit’s perception of annihilation*), and learning that there are ghosts wandering about would simply give people false hope.

Second, nothing that meenie7 can do will “prove” the existence of Marcus (except to meenie7. No matter what evidence is proferred, someone will figure out a way to dismiss it. That is neither here not there regarding the reality of meenie7’s experiences, but it means that demands for proof are a waste of time. No one on this board is going to accept the word of another poster that some third party has verified meenie7’s tests and if the tests failed, they could actually be because Marcus did not want to be put on display, was afraid of cameras, felt meenie7 was betraying a trust, or for some other reason.

If you want to believe or disbelieve meenie7, that is your prerogative, but there is no point in making emotional pleas to take actions that just are not going to happen–and continuing down that path might be construed as harrassment.
(ivan astikov, take note of this paratgraph.)

  • lekatt, please do not rush in with an announcement that the “life” beyond the “light” is really, really true. It has no bearing on my comments which are intended to simply note that there is a logical flaw in jbstarr10’s claim.

Similarly, EVERYONE, I don’t care if folks want to debate the possibility of ghosts, but there is no need to make this a personal attack on meenie7.
[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t aware I answered any of your posts in this thread? But as for the light, I am speaking from experience, many times. I know the life beyond the light is really true, I have been there. So have many of my friends and acquantances.

213

[QUOTE=Lobohan]
There are a lot of stupid, quick to judge and ignorant people out there. Not to mention liars. Probably have been for all of recorded history I’d bet.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t have any doubt that there are. Can you see that believing in everything is the same as believing in nothing?

214

[QUOTE=Lobohan]
I’d be convinced if someone presented compelling evidence. It’s funny that no one in history has ever done that.
[/QUOTE]

There has been conpelling evidence for many, because many do believe. I want to say one more thing before I leave this thread. Tom will get me.

Dr. Wayne Dyer, a psychologist wrote a book called “You will see it, when you believe it.” The title pretty much explains the contents.

215

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Since this is a common occurance among spiritual people it is probable not a delusion.
[/quote]
That isn’t true.

Well if Marcus isn’t trying to fail, how could he get the numbers wrong?

:confused: Wouldn’t that still be good for the whackjob community?

That’s why there need to be controls. People would be convinced if there were evidence. I would be convinced for one. But the sorry fact is that no one has ever offered any evidence. It’s pathetic really.

216

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I see two problems with the test. If he should miss some of the numbers skeptics will say that proves Marcus doesn’t exist. Then if he gets everyone of them correct skeptics will say that is doesn’t prove the existance of Marcus. He probably knew by being a psychic or he could somehow see the numbers rolled.
[/QUOTE]

Personally, I would find the prospect of meenie7’s possessing psychic powers to be just as interesting if she were not receiving the information from a ghost. In either case, it would be a fairly simple matter to show that something extraordinary was taking place—if that were demonstrated, one could then speculate further on the possible cause. As you say, cheating is one possibility, but that likelihood could be fairly easily minimized under the right conditions. (And with Randi nowhere in evidence, his bad vibes couldn’t be blamed for a failed outcome.)

Yes, there are plenty of reasons why the test might fail—Marcus might flub it intentionally, he might decide not to be present, might be spooked or uncomfortable at the presence of unbelieving strangers, might have some deeply held religious opposition to the “Divil’s throwin’ dice” —there are innumerable justifications, all of which will curiously resemble the sort of convenient excuse someone might offer if Marcus were, in fact, an imaginary friend.

Or, Marcus might say “screw you, Vinyl Turnip,” and give meenie7 the correct dice roll 100 out of 100 times. In which case I will humbly apologize.

217

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Since this is a common occurance among spiritual people it is probable not a delusion. I see two problems with the test. If he should miss some of the numbers skeptics will say that proves Marcus doesn’t exist. Then if he gets everyone of them correct skeptics will say that is doesn’t prove the existance of Marcus. He probably knew by being a psychic or he could somehow see the numbers rolled. They would never accept it.
[/QUOTE]

Amazing that this is common, yet there are no properly documented cases of it occurring? If you have a cite handy please provide.

The rest is the same old ‘skeptics won’t beleive it anyway’ - like I asked the other poster, how could you know that until you present the evidence?

218

The next time my best friend and I are together, we will conduct a test on Marcus for our own curiosity. (He lives in California now and I don’t see him as often as I’d like.) Marcus says he will commit to that at least. The bigger stuff, he doesn’t have a problem doing, but he worries about me, in the event the test “fails” and I am embarrassed as a liar or a crazy person.

219

Pit thread

220

[QUOTE=meenie7]
…he worries about me, in the event the test “fails” and I am embarrassed as a liar or a crazy person.
[/QUOTE]
As well he should be. Those are really the only two options short of completely upending reality as we know it, and perhaps the part of your subconscious that created Marcus is trying to tell you something.

To be frank, I’m surprised this extremely MPSIMSish thread has been allowed to continue in Great Debates. As I mentioned before, the anecdotes have been cute and fun but the only real debate has been … well, there hasn’t been one unless we can count discussing whether your imaginary friend will or will not submit to testing.

Look, the relationship you have with Marcus is extremely unusual, to the point that it’s very nearly unbelievable, and “very nearly” is my weasely way of saying “totally.” If you cannot come up with the extraordinary evidence needed to prove your extraordinary claims then I ask that the mods move this thread where it belongs. It’s either “put up or shut up” and until you do the only conclusion a rational person can come to is that you made it up, either consciously or unconsciously.