Your username did the heavy lifting already!
Well, not just horses!
I gave a lot of thought to this last night while trying to go to sleep. My initial thought was: Of course, Zorro movies are westerns; they’re simply swashbuckling westerns.
If the Zorro movies aren’t westerns, why not? The time period is different than most westerns, but there are other exceptions to the classic 1865-1890 time frame. “Jeremiah Johnson” and “The Revenant” take place in the 1840s and 1820s, respectively. “The Shootist” takes place in 1900, I believe, and “The Wild Bunch” is set even later.
It doesn’t have marauding Indians, but neither does “High Noon” or “Rio Bravo.” It doesn’t have a sheriff facing down bad guys, but neither does “Dances with Wolves” or “The Big Trail.” It doesn’t have cowboys firing six-shooters, but neither does “The Alamo.”
In short, I can’t think of any reason to exclude Zorro movies based on its lack of the usual trappings of a western.
But what about themes? There I think you might find an important difference.
It seems to me that westerns, in one way or another, are about creating a new social order. They’re about settlers displacing Indians, farmers displacing ranchers, lawmen displacing outlaws. Westerns are about living on the edge of something new. (Please note that I’m condoning the racism of many westerns or implying that “something new” was the same thing as “something good.”)
By that measure, movies set in the eastern US can count as westerns if they’re about the clash of cultures between natives and settlers. Daniel Boone movies and “Drums Along the Mohawk” could be considered “colonial westerns” or, I don’t know, “coonskin westerns.”
Zorro, however, was about tearing something down. A Spanish colonial society has been created and is the status quo in Zorro movies. But this society is corrupt and rotting. The hero’s mission is to shake up society, bring down the corrupt leaders, give hope to the masses.
Maybe there’s a movie that’s generally considered a western that shares this outlook, but I can’t think of any. Thematically, Zorro has more in common with “The Matrix” than with “The Man from Laramie.”
That’s why I now conclude that Zorro movies, while featuring horses and a masked man seeking justice in the west, do not qualify as “westerns.”
Incidentally, the Fairbanks version of Zorro explicitly includes sticking up for mistreated Indians in the mission statement of our gun-toting hero-on-horseback.
I agree with Clark K. Westerns are concerned with people trying to live in an area of lawlessness or, more specifically, with trying to establish law in such a place.
Zorro ain’t that.
Exactly. In the first movie, we see the graves of people who died in the 1880s. Then the third film is set during the Civil War, which raged from 1861-65. Now, what’s wrong with that picture, hmmm?
On the other hand, it’s been convincingly argued in other threads The Good, the Bad and the Ugly was not a sequel at all and that Blondie was just someone who happened to be similar to the other characters. Maybe. It was certainly made clear that Lee Van Cleef’s characters in the second and third films were not the same. I’d always thought they were, but I became convinced otherwise.
There are lots of westerns where the hero is a small farmer or rancher, and the villain is a wealthy cattle baron or railroad baron.
Rio Lobo.
The Sons of Katie Elder.
There are lots of westerns where the hero is an outlaw, and the villain is a corrupt sheriff.
Most versions of Billie the Kid, most versions of Jesse James.
Many films from the 1950s and 1960s depicted the Indian wars, and attempted (albeit badly) to show the Native Americans’ point of view.
Cochise.
Taza, Son of Cochise.
Geronimo.
Any western dealing with a Mexican civil war will usually have the rebels as the heroes.
Two Mules for Sister Sarah.
Zorro fits well within this tradition.
Butch Cassidy
An outlaw standing up to a corrupt sheriff or a farmer facing off against a corrupt rancher (which was mentioned in my post) is essentially one little guy standing up to a bully. It’s still about the tension between lawlessness and civilization. That, to me at least, is different from Zorro or Robin Hood challenging an established society.
Movies from the Native Americans’ point of view are still telling the classic “clash of cultures” story, just from the other side.
I haven’t seen a Mexican civil war movie, so I can’t comment on that angle.
This is all rather theoretical. I’m certainly splitting hairs on some of this, but I do think the insider-battling-corruption theme is different from the traditional western.
Heck, I consider “Outland” a western.
My nitpicking silly position:
The Grey Fox is set in Western Canada, and qualifies as a sort of “Post-Western” with Bill, an American stagecoach robber, being released into Year One of the 20th Century after several decades in prison. 20th century Canada notwithstanding, Grey Fox is one of my two favorite Westerns (or “Westerns.”)
btw, the female lead was played by Jackie Burroughs, one-time wife of Lovin’ Spoonful guitar wiz Zal Yanovsky.
Actually it’s close enough to be a Western. I think there are several Western eras, the Old West which covers Zorro, the Wild West which is the showdown era, and then Modern Westerns from the late 19th century forward, maybe from 1890 on or something like that.
What are the boundaries for a Western? Southeastern US 1830-1900, anything with horses and cowboy hats, any American period piece between Daniel Boone and Pearl Harbor? Is Brokeback Mountain a Western? How about Tom Sawyer? The Grapes of Wrath?
Westerns have to have a basis in western North America approximately divided by the Mississippi River. They can be set in any time. You can have a Western about pre-Columbian America, and you can have one about any time in the future before Western North America is no longer geographically distinct.
What makes it a Western are Western elements like guns, horses, cowboys, and Indians. Westerns exist in the characterizations of good guys and bad guys, farmers, ranchers, school marms and saloon whores. Westerns show us the rigors traveling long distances cross country without paved roads, fighting for just causes, and experiencing unjust loss. Westerns are about courage and cowardice and indomitable spirits. Put enough of those elements together in the American west and you have a Western. Put them somewhere else and you have a _________ Western.