Do you consider yourself a feminist?

[AHunter3]

I’ve posted a new poll for people to elaborate on what they consider “feminist” to mean.

What does 'Feminist' mean to you?

[colander]

@Der_Trihs

Men talk over women mainly for the same reason they talk over other men; that’s how men talk. Men interrupt each other all the time, and tend to talk until they are interrupted, and expect to be interrupted when the other party has something to say. That’s how American male conversational rules work.

Friend, I am afraid there is a little more to it than that. Studies consistently show that women speakers are interrupted more often than men, and you know what? That’s not so much fun. In fact, it fucking sucks. And on the internet, it happens goddamn near every time somebody brings up women’s rights. Perhaps you can see why it gets under women’s skin.

[Der_Trihs]

@colander

And on the internet, it happens goddamn near every time somebody brings up women’s rights.

Or anything else. If you want to lecture people without interruption publish a blog or something. Don’t use a message board, since people just might have the temerity to do something terrible like, oh, discuss things.

[Sarahfeena]

@HeyHomie

I believe women should have exactly the same rights as men; no more, no less. Does that make me a feminist?

Yes.

But it’s not just about rights, it’s about societal attitudes, as well.

[you_with_the_face]

Saying that you’re for equal rights for both sexes is about as radically progressive as saying you’re against indentured servitude and slavery. In the 19th century, such a position meant something. In 2012, it makes you no different than most people in western civilization. Obviously sexism goes a lot deeper than rights.

[colander]

@Der_Trihs

Or anything else. If you want to lecture people without interruption publish a blog or something. Don’t use a message board, since people just might have the temerity to do something terrible like, oh, discuss things.

Nobody here is stopping you from saying anything. Would you care to comment on what I said re: women systematically being interrupted more often than men? I think it is an interesting issue, and it is certainly one that many people, not just you, are only peripherally aware of, if that. I have my own thoughts, of course, but if you would rather not discuss the issue, I certainly cannot force you.

[Odesio]

@colander

Friend, I am afraid there is a little more to it than that. Studies consistently show that women speakers are interrupted more often than men, and you know what? That’s not so much fun. In fact, it fucking sucks. And on the internet, it happens goddamn near every time somebody brings up women’s rights. Perhaps you can see why it gets under women’s skin.

How do you interrupt someone on the internet?

[I_Made_French_Toast_For_You]

@Odesio

How do you interrupt some

Like this.

[Shagnasty]

@Odesio

How do you interrupt someone on the internet?

Easy, by bringing up any points that aren’t an approved part of the feminist orthodoxy. Every time we have one of these discussions some outsider barges in to bring up something that is either not found in any gender studies textbook or was explained away already by prominent feminists long ago and you just didn’t care enough assimilate that into your thought process. On top of that, people insist on using terms based on their standard English definition rather than the revised definitions given in the feminist dictionary (not published) and that just confuses the matter.

You can never complete one of these threads in the correct way because male privilege makes some people believe that the standard rules don’t apply to them.

[Ibanez]

@Odesio

How do you interrupt someone on the internet?

When *male privilege *is brought up in the context of feminism, and disagreeing that men are inherently privileged I suppose. In this context I think that is what ‘interruption’ means. A cheeky way of saying stfu.

[Slithy_Tove]

@colander

Studies consistently show

That’s a good enough cite for Fox News, but not here. I can counter with “studies” that show wives and girlfriends flow out with a stream of conscious monologue, and the only way men can get a word in edgewise is to interrupt them.

[colander]

@Slithy_Tove

That’s a good enough cite for Fox News, but not here.

Fair point. Indeed, I’ve overstated the unanimity of the literature results (and there are quite a few!) to date. Here’s a link to Leaper and Anderson’s 1998 Meta-Analyses of Gender Effects on Conversational Interruption, which collates the results of 43 studies on the topic. The abstract:

Meta-analyses of 43 published studies comparing adult women’s and men’s interruptions during conversations were conducted. Combined significance levels and combined effect sizes were analyzed. Across studies, men were significantly more likely than women to use interruptions. This difference, however, was associated with a negligible effect size (d = .15). A more substantial effect size (d = .33) was found when studies looking specifically at intrusive types of interruption were analyzed separately. Other moderator variables were found to be related to gender effects on the use of intrusive interruptions. Most notably, reports of gender differences in intrusive interruptions were more likely and larger in magnitude when either women (versus men) were first authors, participants were observed in naturalistic (versus laboratory) settings, or participants were observed interacting in groups of three or more persons (versus in dyads). These results lend support to a contextual-interactive model of gender that emphasizes the importance of situational moderators on gender-related variations in social behavior.

So, yeah. There’s some things going on here.

[Jragon]

@colander

Fair point. Indeed, I’ve overstated the unanimity of the literature results (and there are quite a few!) to date. Here’s a link to Leaper and Anderson’s 1998 Meta-Analyses of Gender Effects on Conversational Interruption, which collates the results of 43 studies on the topic. The abstract:

So, yeah. There’s some things going on here.

Still, what’s the cause? Is it because women are socialized to be more passive and thus give in to being interrupted more easily? They’re quieter so louder male voices override them more? Because men don’t think women’s opinions are worth it? Do women have more of a habit of talking until they get subtle cues that mean don’t subconsciously give, meaning men don’t get a chance to speak unless they try to interrupt them (I know this happens in my family, I’d never be able to talk at a family gathering unless I interrupted my mom or aunts, they always without fail cut me off if I try to start talking in empty space. I thought I was just being rude until my then-girlfriend independently commented on about how they weren’t ever letting me talk)? Whose onus is it on to stop it? Is it on parents to raise their girls to be more assertive and/or grown women to train themselves to be more assertive? Is it on men to check themselves and stop doing it? All of the above? Something else entirely?

I really think the statistic is relatively meaningless without a good analysis of the “why’s”, because any number of solutions could be the “correct” (or at least “best”) one depending on what causes the problem.

[Grumman]

@you_with_the_face

It sends the signal that a woman’s looks are of utmost importance to you. Her actual achievements come secondary, if at all.

No, you receive that signal because that’s what you want to hear me say. It is only because I do not follow the sport she competes in and not because she is a woman that makes me indifferent to her achievements.

[Slithy_Tove]

From my own experience, men seek to establish a hierarchy, women seek consensus. This doesn’t mean men are all-domineering and women all-nurturing; in fact the beta males will gladly assent to the alpha male (or alpha female), just so long as some structure is set. And some women will manipulate the consensus to their own ends. Be that as it may, both these qualities are beneficial to getting humanity from point A to B, and should be respected by male and female participants alike.

ETA: props to colander for bringing back with pie.

[colander]

@Jragon

Still, what’s the cause? Is it because women are socialized to be more passive and thus give in to being interrupted more easily? They’re quieter so louder male voices override them more? Because men don’t think women’s opinions are worth it? Do women have more of a habit of talking until they get subtle cues that mean don’t subconsciously give, meaning men don’t get a chance to speak unless they try to interrupt them (I know this happens in my family, I’d never be able to talk at a family gathering unless I interrupted my mom or aunts. I thought I was just being rude until my then-girlfriend independently commented on about how they weren’t ever letting me talk)? Whose onus is it on to stop it? Is it on parents to raise their girls to be more assertive and/or grown women to train themselves to be more assertive? Is it on men to check themselves and stop doing it? All of the above? Something else entirely?

I really think the statistic is relatively meaningless without a good analysis of the “why’s”, because any number of solutions could be the “correct” (or at least “best”) one depending on what causes the problem.

The editor board of American Sociological review didn’t think it was meaningless. If you’ve got an idea for a study that you think can definitively explain why this stuff happens, well, heck, go for it! But the idea that there is a single decisive explanatory factor that 43 investigators somehow managed to overlook… well, that is generally not how these things tend to fall out.

Seriously, why don’t you give it a skim? It references all the studies it collates, so you can check out a few of those, too. There are studies looking at gender variance as a function of many different factors: familiarity, lab setting vs. natural environment, age, status, group composition, nationality, interruption type… trust me, people have given this matter quite a bit of thought.

[colander]

@Grumman

No, you receive that signal because that’s what you want to hear me say. It is only because I do not follow the sport she competes in and not because she is a woman that makes me indifferent to her achievements.

What you said was “Here’s an example of a woman I find attractive. She plays a sport or something, too, I guess, but I don’t care about that.”

That’s cool and all, but I’m really not getting why you think this makes you look like one of the good ones.

[colander]

@Slithy_Tove

From my own experience, men seek to establish a hierarchy, women seek consensus. This doesn’t mean men are all-domineering and women all-nurturing; in fact the beta males will gladly assent to the alpha male (or alpha female), just so long as some structure is set. And some women will manipulate the consensus to their own ends. Be that as it may, both these qualities are beneficial to getting humanity from point A to B, and should be respected by male and female participants alike.

Uh, okay. Have you published?

[Slithy_Tove]

Two honest questions:

1. Have you noticed the forum name?
2. Do you usually return a compliment with a snark? (And edit the compliment out of the quote box thinking nobody would see it before the edit window closes?)

[colander]

@Slithy_Tove

Two honest questions:

1. Have you noticed the forum name?
2. Do you usually return a compliment with a snark? (And edit the compliment out of the quote box thinking nobody would see it before the edit window closes?)

1. I like it when people back up their opinions with facts. It gives me a funny feeling in my pants. Go figure.

2. I am sorry for not returning your compliment. I bet your hair looks nice today.