I’ve met too many batshit women who call themselves feminist to be happy with the term- including a woman who taught her 8 and 6 year old daughters to tell everyone they hated men, and thought they were useless, despite a) being brought up by their dad (stepdad for one of them) and b) having two brothers by the same mother. I’ve also known women who wanted any legislation that was disproportionately beneficial to women to be repealed, on the grounds that it was ‘patronising’ and ‘offensive’, even if it was also available to, but less used by, men.
Also, I believe in equality, but I don’t think labelling that as a purely female issue is helpful. Yes, there are still equality issues that affect women, but there’s equality issues affecting men, and any other group you can come up with too.
At least in the UK, there seems to be a trend of using ‘feminism’ as a blanket term for any campaigning for any issue regarding equality at all, which is pretty bizarre to me- why use a gender loaded term for a topic that goes beyond one gender, when you’re complaining about bias?
This is why I identify as a feminist. This type of response needs to be challenged.
Inigo Montoya, instead of reading what ladyfoxfyre had to say, allowing that she has more experience in this particular context than you do, and giving her the benefit of the doubt, you minimized, discounted, and dismissed what she had to say because . . . why?
What do you lose by considering that she accurately reported what she experienced and that she has some insight into it? Is it so very difficult to trust her judgment on this matter? Are you threatened by some part of her complaint?
She didn’t say her judge was a bad person. She didn’t say the judge was hostile, bigoted, or out to get her. She only said that the remark about her appearance was out of place and would not have happened if she’d been a man.
You say you identify as genderqueer. I accept that, and I would not question if you really know that you’re genderqueer. I would not question if you were confused, trying out different identities, rebelling against society, or some other typical, unthinking response. If you told me that you were in a situation where your gender identity was known and you found that people treated you differently - unfairly, making judgment calls based not on who you are but on some preconceived notion of what you are - I would accept your experience as authentic unless there was some compelling reason not to. I wouldn’t find reasons to pick apart what you said - asking if maybe you were hitting on people, starting arguments, or scorning others for some mild mention of their non-genderqueer status.
Is there some compelling reason to dismiss ladyfoxfyre’s anecdote? Is it so very hard to consider that ladyfoxfyre’s experience is authentic, sincere, and trustworthy, and that there are still issues with how women are treated by our society?
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I know many feminists who do not believe that men are equal to women. They believe that men are lesser beings.
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I’ve met too many batshit women who call themselves feminist to be happy with the term- including a woman who taught her 8 and 6 year old daughters to tell everyone they hated men…
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In case people are getting a one-sided view of this, I just wanted to chime in and say that I have never met a man-hating or “militant” feminist in real life. Where are you guys hanging out?
Feminist, of course. Regardless of your opinion of the definition or your problem with the other opinions held by some feminists, not being a feminist means you do not support women having equal rights to men. Words have meanings.
My university had a “don’t rape” section of a mixed-gender sexual assault session at Freshman orientation.
Why? Because for many guys, college is the first time they will be spending a lot of unsupervised time around women, often with copious alcohol involved, and quite often they will be surrounded by a peer group that has embraced some troubling norms. It can be easy for someone with limited experience who is in a potentially toxic environment to not fully understand where the boundaries of acceptable behavior lie.
They covered topics such as the realities of sexual assault on our campus, the definition of consent and how to tell that your partner has consented, the role of alcohol in sexual assault and how to tell if your partner is too intoxicated to consent, male on male sexual assault, the resources available to men who have experienced sexual assault, the consequences of committing a violation, and how to work with the health center, women’s center, and other organizations that fight against sexual assault.
The conversation was honest, frank, and unafraid tackle grey areas and ambiguous situations. It was a very helpful session.
I am a feminist because I know we’re still not equal in this world. Not anywhere near equal. Take for instance, the abortion issue. It should not be anyone’s decision but the woman seeking one, but men (and women!) prefer to give rights to an embryo that trumps the woman’s bodily autonomy simply because they find abortion distasteful and they feel the need to force others to live by their own rules either by laws or traumatizing women who are already suffering. Feminism is a global activism fighting for the rights of women. That doesn’t mean we don’t care about the rights of men, it just means we’ve chosen to target a group that , regardless of what some say, still do not receive equal rights, equal protection under the law, and in many places have no voice at all.
It is not about man-hating, bra burning, or controlling men’s rights.
Even if it were worked out in the US (which is far, far, far from true), you realize there is a whole big giant world out there, right? If I hopped on a plane, by breakfast I could be in places where rape is basically legal, where women are bought and sold like cattle, and where it’s routine to amputate girl’s sex organs.
I think I advanced an alternative hypothetical motivation for the comment: perhaps it was constructive criticism as opposed to a “WTF?” It became clear shortly thereafter that lady was not open to that interpretation and actually dismissed what I had to say with gave assurances that she was well-dressed, and that the none of the dudes received such comments. At that point, I realized she was unreceptive to a perspective other than her own and I dropped the conversation. I wasn’t the one who wrote the comment, I did not see her ensemble, I was in no position to press the point, nor was I particularly inclined to discuss fashion choices–however well-executed they may be–and the potential for them to be distracting. If the comment was NOT meant to be constructive, then it was degrading and belied the judge’s opinion she had no place in debate. As dudes weren’t receiving fashion tips from the judges, it is not unreasonable to conclude they are believed inherently better-suited to the activity so I imposed a personality on the judge. I met low-grade dis with low-grade dis and considered it even.
That wasn’t me. I hope AHunter3 isn’t offended by being confused with me.
Bolding mine. I dismissed what you had to say because you were factually wrong about the situation, given that you weren’t present when it occurred. My anecdote was about having my clothing inappropriately singled out during a debate competition, and your response was essentially “well maybe you WERE dressed in a sloppy manner!” Well, as luck would have it, I was not. Me being unreceptive to your “perspective” on the manner is due to the fact that your speculation was inaccurate. Your smarmy comment about home economics aside, do you have another suggestion for why the comment was made to me? Like, perhaps women are more likely to be judged based on their physical appearance than men are, and this is an example where that attitude persists?
Is it that hard to believe that this is the case for many women in many situations?
And in many of those same countries, little boys are impressed into militias, men are bought and sold as slaves, and if they get out of line they too can experience genital mutilation. There is no place where all men live like brothers and pals while the women are oppressed. Women’s rights are a yardstick of human rights.
Meanwhile a lot of middle class women are allowed to consider themselves feminist if they’ve studied and worked up to the same income as their boyfriends, but still expect him to pay several month’s salary for a diamond ring (ha ha, girl power yay feminism!) A diamond that was mined by one of the men described above.
I don’t see any great feminists anymore. I see some great women brought up on feminism who build on that power for the benefit of all humanity.
Every ideology has in it the seeds of its own destruction. Those ideologues who don’t blend it into overall progressivism will wither and corrupt on the original vine. I agree. We do have a long way to go. We won’t get there if all that’s pulling us is one group’s gored ox.
And again, specifically with regard to high school debate, I can confirm that it absolutely does happen. We joke about “losing ballots” because we actually have to do it so frequently.
Yes, I consider myself a feminist, and I don’t do the “but not one of those kind of feminist” qualifiers. I think there’s one goal of feminism…equal rights and opportunities. Debates over the validity of first wave, second wave, and third wave feminism or quibbling over how to get from here to there are just part of the the natural development and evolution of social movements.
ladyfoxfyre, we are not communicating. Maybe I’m being unclear, maybe you’re not receptive, but whatever is going on it’s pretty clear you won’t be satisfied with anything I have to say about our little chat. You choose to believe the judge’s comment was improper and delivered only because of your gender, Diosa can corroborate with similar experience of suspiciously absent comments on male dress–what can I say? My only message in this whole adventure was, “well, maybe your appearance was jarring and distracting.” Not sloppy and inattentive–just different enough to be a distraction.
Because she had two buttons instead of three? :dubious: That’s not “distracting appearance” unless you’re fishing for reasons to complain or extremely OCD. ETA: Or, I guess, she COULD have been dressed weird and the judge sucks immensely at communicating his/her thoughts in a coherent way, but one would hope that those people wouldn’t be judges at a debate match.
Oh, they are. Last year, we got a ballot back that was filled out by a local junior college student. What was his reason for decision? “iM sew hi rite now.” Seriously.
Yeah, I assure you I wasn’t dressed weirdly. Nobody in my team had any clue what they had an issue with, it was standard debate team “uniform” of high schoolers running around looking like mini-lawyers. Pants suits, dress shoes, dress shirts underneath. Nothing flashy, nothing slouchy, nothing skimpy or provocative. Nothing “statement”.
Inigo, maybe you aren’t communicating well, or maybe you just don’t seem to accept the idea that it’s possible the comment, and the comments made to Diosa’s students, were just an example of being unfairly scrutinized for our appearance where our male counterparts were not held to the same scrutiny in their physical appearance. That was my entire point. You’re still entertaining the possibility that maybe I was dressed weirdly and just not letting it on, I get that. You’re playing the devil’s advocate as though maybe the judge were correct to comment on my appearance for some reason, because it was so “jarring” to see me dressed essentially like every other girl there that day. Maybe you’re right. But I somehow don’t think so.
Yes, I consider myself a feminist. There are far too many people in the world who seem to think that women are disposable, or deserve to be treated as lesser beings. Granted, we do have it good in America compared to other countries…but we still have people in positions of power who think that women shouldn’t make decisions about their own bodies (and those that do are sluts, of course). It’s especially horrible to hear such oppressive things from other women. This isn’t about “man hate”, it’s about being treated like a human being.
Why is the divisive term ‘feminist’ relevant to those concerns? They are also covered under more inclusive and less bigoted philosophies. Men have issues too in the U.S. and around the world including being conscripted into mass slaughter, child custody issues, and a lower life expectancy. If you focus on some areas of the world where there are deliberate attempts to suppress women’s rights in particular, I can almost see the point but those are also the areas where all people have extreme human rights issues.
If you claim that feminism is about human rights for all, I suggest that you change the name. Anyone that balks idea is a liar regarding their true motivations.
Just because you have ascribed a negative connotation to the word, doesn’t mean that people who have a non-extremist version of that philosophy have to change what they call themselves to suit you.
