Do you expect every cop to be a "hero"?

[Loach]

Hero? Whatever. Meaningless word. A police officer needs to act. When the bullets are flying the worst thing that can be done is nothing. You may chose wrong but you have to make a choice and act.

@Fear_Itself

I don’t expect heroism. All I ask is enough courage to stop shooting law abiding people who frightened them. I am sick of cops citing fear as a justification for shooting unarmed kids or law abiding gun owners. They should err on the side of public safety over their own. That is heroism, and if they have to take one for the team once in a while, so be it. That’s what medals are for.

Fear is not a justification for deadly force. Reasonable fear is. A very important distinction. And it is supposed to be viewed in the context of a split second decision not by watching a video in slow motion from your couch 20 times. Many people have unrealistic expectations about how humans should act in high stress situations.

@Hari_Seldon

With regard to the Parkland shooting I raise the same question that I raised in another thread. If the cop isn’t there to try to limit the killing, then exactly what is he there for? To break up fights? Nonsense. There were no cops when I was in HS but some teachers would break up fights. I knew one that carried a section of pipe strapped to his leg. He used it only once, but it worked. But in those days the gun cult wasn’t so far along.

In the unlikely event of a shooting the SRO should act. However that is not his job. He’s not a guard. In many jurisdictions they don’t carry weapons because the school doesn’t want them to. If you want guards in the schools you better plan for more than one per 3,000 students on a 14 building campus.

[What_Exit]

I kind of do expect them to be heroes when needed. Even more so Fireman. I think it is their job description.

I appreciate the job they’re willing to do. Most cops willingly put themselves in more danger than thankfully any of us are ever likely to face.

[Der_Trihs]

I expect them to be terrible people in pretty much every way. I certainly don’t expect heroism from them; I’d be surprised at basic human decency.

[Dobbs]

I don’t expect hero*, but I do expect standards.

Police and firemen (and military and doctors and some others) are expected to take certain courses of action in certain situations. In a more perfect world, this would happen. This world isn’t yet perfect.

Training should teach theses standards, and those who cannot, should ‘wash out’. This doesn’t always happen, and it can take some time to discover that.

*Well, I guess I do, really. I define hero as someone who exposes themselves to risk to reduce the risk to others. But also expect police and firemen to have the tools and training to make the risks they face as small as possible, and well below the risk others may face, and that should be enough to allow them to act. I would expect a trained policeman armed with a snub nose .38 to take on a kid armed with anything, and win 95% of the time. I’m probably wrong.

[HurricaneDitka]

@Dobbs

… I would expect a trained policeman armed with a snub nose .38 to take on a kid armed with anything, and win 95% of the time. I’m probably wrong.

Yup. In this video, an assortment of San Francisco’s “finest” fire 65 rounds and hit nothing while literally tripping over each other.

[MrDibble]

“Should they be” or “Do I expect them to be”? Those are two very different questions, with the answers “Yes” and “Not a damn”, respectively.

[Isamu]

I expect every cop to be better equipped than a teenager.

[RTFirefly]

@Fear_Itself

I don’t expect heroism. All I ask is enough courage to stop shooting law abiding people who frightened them. I am sick of cops citing fear as a justification for shooting unarmed kids or law abiding gun owners. They should err on the side of public safety over their own. That is heroism, and if they have to take one for the team once in a while, so be it. That’s what medals are for.

This. While I think ‘heroism’ is a subjective thing, what I think we should be able to expect of law enforcement officers is that they

err on the side of public safety over their own.

That’s what they’re there for: to take a bit more risk than the rest of us to keep the rest of us safe.

@Loach

Fear is not a justification for deadly force. Reasonable fear is. A very important distinction. And it is supposed to be viewed in the context of a split second decision not by watching a video in slow motion from your couch 20 times. Many people have unrealistic expectations about how humans should act in high stress situations.

Too often, the only thing ‘high stress’ about these situations is that the citizen is of African descent. You watch the video 20 times in slow motion to see if there’s anything that should set the cop off, and damned if you can see why he even considered pulling the damn trigger.

I tend to drive a bit on the fast side, so I’ve been pulled over by the cops every now and then. And until we started being able to see these videos and they got analyzed to a fare-thee-well, and people blamed the (black) driver for not sitting perfectly still with his hands on the steering wheel when the cop walked up - I had no idea until then that that’s what you were supposed to do when the cop walked up. Usually I’d still be rummaging in the glove compartment for my registration. And even if I had my license and registration ready, I’d have my hands down by my sides or in my lap or wherever, and I never got the least bit of hassle from a cop about that. Never. Even when I was still in my teens, rather than the middle-aged respectable-looking citizen I’ve become.

But I’m white. And the situations that were ‘high stress’ when the driver was black, magically weren’t ‘high stress’ with me. Just sayin’.

[BobLibDem]

I don’t expect a pistol-packing deputy to go charging in like Rambo against an opponent with the big guns. But I think he could have gone in and ducked from doorway to doorway in the halls towards the gunfire until he had a shot at the attacker. After of course the SWAT team had been called in for backup.

[MonkeyCat]

@Dinsdale

My wife asked this question this a.m., and I thought it might be worth its own thread. Obviously related to that sheriff’s deputy in FL. My immediate answer was “Yes!”, but then I wondered what limits I might expect on a cop’s obligation to display “heroic” behavior. And appropriate behavior might vary depending on the situation. In some situations, it might be better for a lone, outgunned cop to take cover, monitor, and communicate with support, rather than charge in and (likely) sacrifice himself.

How appropriate is it to compare what is expected of cops to firemen, or military?

I don’t even know how to best frame this discussion, other than to raise infinite scenarios. I imagine tere would tend to be extreme categories of situations/responses at either end, where most of us would agree action is expected or not, with a huge grey area in between.

Any thoughts?

There’s definitely an obligation to the occupation of police officer to protect the innocent. However, there are going to be, as you said, situations with extenuating circumstances in which an officer would be more helpful waiting and calling for backup (expediting the process of arrival of more manpower) and being able to update other law enforcement from a strategic vantage point.

It depends upon the likely chance of a positive outcome from either decision.

School shooter? It depends upon where the cop is, whether he has eyes on the shooter, etc. Perhaps he was using his time in what he perceived as a more wise way - protecting the students he had eyes on. We don’t have enough information.

[Grrr]

Short answer: “Yes”.

But at the same time, we are all only human. So if a LEO freezes up in a situation, and then later decides to quit because he finds out he can’t do the job he previously thought he could do; I wouldn’t judge him harshly over it.

[SamuelA]

@B-Rad

With Parkland in particular, my criticism is limited to allowing the shooter access to the school. I’m not clear about how that happened without a cop being made dead at the point of entry.

Schools aren’t built like prisons, yet, with just 1 point of entry and exit. There are lots of side doors to let students out, and schools are so crowded that you kind of need those extra doors. Usually they are “exit only” but in practice it’s easy to get in them. Just wait for someone to leave and grab the door, etc.

Nor are there enough guards, yet, to have someone posted at every entrance all the time. Instead there’s usually a roving guard or 2 on campus somewhere. Maybe armed, maybe not.