Do you have any sympathy for all the auto dealers being shut down?

[Jettboy]

Every dealership employs dozens of people doing dozens of different jobs; not all of them are the sleazy, predatory, polyester-clad hucksters trying to seperate the rubes from their wallets. My brother, the ace custom mechanic, worked in a couple of dealerships early in his career, and seldom ever saw or spoke to the office and sales staff.

I feel bad for anyone, especially the lower level plebes, who lose their jobs because of the idiotic decisions made by the dickheads at the corporate level. People who work in car dealerships have wives, kids and bills just like everyone else.

[Fat_Chance]

@Labrador_Deceiver

Have you ever heard of closing costs? They may not hit you with it at the table (though it happens a lot), but there are still hidden costs sprung on people all the time. There are dozens of bits of minutiae negotiated in the purchase of a house after a price has been initially agreed upon. As a builder, I’m on more solid ground here.

Regardless, I’m not defending the bait and switch tactics employed by the car dealer you had experience with (or others, for that matter). I just don’t have a problem with car dealers who are willing to haggle on price.

Closing costs are not sprung on the buyer by the seller at closing after a sales price is agreed to - they are typically lawyer, bank, financing, etc.

[Unintentionally_Blank]

@Labrador_Deceiver

What are you talking about? I never said it was. I was pointing out that there are good dealers out there.

You didn’t say that, you offered up your positive experience to counter our negative experiences.

I have had good purchasing experiences. I’ve walked away from bad ones. Doesn’t mean I have to like the way things are.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@Unintentionally_Blank

You didn’t say that, you offered up your positive experience to counter our negative experiences.

I have had good purchasing experiences. I’ve walked away from bad ones. Doesn’t mean I have to like the way things are.

My position in this thread has never been that there are no bad dealers. There are a bunch of them. Don’t presume that I was trying to counter anything. I was just demonstrating that not all dealerships operate in the way that particular Nissan dealer does.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@Fat_Chance

Closing costs are not sprung on the buyer by the seller at closing after a sales price is agreed to - they are typically lawyer, bank, financing, etc.

People also don’t look at, negotiate, inspect and close on houses in the same day. That’s maybe the only reason such things don’t happen on the actual day of closing. There are plenty of surprises that can pop up unexpectedly throughout the process, though. Many of which can be a direct result of the seller.

[control-z]

I have sympathy for the auto dealers that are being shut down, and their employees. I realize the whole car buying process generally sucks, and dealers charge way too much for service, but still these are people with families and mortgages. Who’s to judge that working at a car dealership is any less worthy than working at Starbucks or selling shoes?

[Cheesesteak]

@Labrador_Deceiver

I just don’t have a problem with car dealers who are willing to haggle on price.

Car dealers aren’t “willing” to haggle, the entire structure of the sales process requires haggling, unless the buyer wants to pay the “Idiotic Jackass” price (aka MSRP).

There’s a reason the process is this way, traditionally buyers lagged far behind sellers in knowledge about the product. Buyers didn’t know what was expensive or not expensive, what prices were good or not so good, and the bad hagglers would get hammered to the tune of hundreds or thousands of dollars on the purchase. The good hagglers would still represent a profitable sale to the dealership, as the dealers know exactly, to the dollar, what a profitable price is, something the buyers never know.

Today, with the internet, buyers have more resources and more buyers are good hagglers, but the whole process is set up to take advantage of an inherent information gap, and buyers are rightfully irritated by it, since they are the disadvantaged party.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@Cheesesteak

Car dealers aren’t “willing” to haggle, the entire structure of the sales process requires haggling, unless the buyer wants to pay the “Idiotic Jackass” price (aka MSRP).

I understand that quite well. I was simply saying that I don’t have a problem with that model.

There’s a reason the process is this way, traditionally buyers lagged far behind sellers in knowledge about the product. Buyers didn’t know what was expensive or not expensive, what prices were good or not so good, and the bad hagglers would get hammered to the tune of hundreds or thousands of dollars on the purchase. The good hagglers would still represent a profitable sale to the dealership, as the dealers know exactly, to the dollar, what a profitable price is, something the buyers never know.

Today, with the internet, buyers have more resources and more buyers are good hagglers, but the whole process is set up to take advantage of an inherent information gap, and buyers are rightfully irritated by it, since they are the disadvantaged party.

I would argue that the car dealers are just the last to hold on to a system that used to dominate everything in the marketplace. I don’t know of any market for goods that cost in the tens of thousands of dollars that doesn’t allow for haggling, though companies like Carmax are popping up more and more.

[Cheesesteak]

@Labrador_Deceiver

I don’t know of any market for goods that cost in the tens of thousands of dollars that doesn’t allow for haggling,

“allow”? You’re still implying that haggling is optional, when the reality is that one must haggle in order to avoid paying the idiot price. Automobiles are one of the only direct to consumer products where haggling is required to get a decent price. The fact that cars are expensive does not automatically mean one must haggle, and it doesn’t mean that the list price has to be ridiculously jacked up. It also doesn’t require all of the shenanigans you hear about, with salesmen constantly having to “check with the manager” and offering BS trade in values for your old car, dicking around with loan terms to get a particular monthly cost for an inflated purchase price.

The whole thing is setup to exploit people with poor information, and poor negotiating skills, and it makes the process unpleasant for everyone.

[control-z]

@Labrador_Deceiver

I would argue that the car dealers are just the last to hold on to a system that used to dominate everything in the marketplace. I don’t know of any market for goods that cost in the tens of thousands of dollars that doesn’t allow for haggling, though companies like Carmax are popping up more and more.

The thing about Carmax is all the buyers know they’re getting screwed equally. I wonder if anyone has ever got them to haggle?

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@Cheesesteak

“allow”? You’re still implying that haggling is optional, when the reality is that one must haggle in order to avoid paying the idiot price. Automobiles are one of the only direct to consumer products where haggling is required to get a decent price. The fact that cars are expensive does not automatically mean one must haggle, and it doesn’t mean that the list price has to be ridiculously jacked up. It also doesn’t require all of the shenanigans you hear about, with salesmen constantly having to “check with the manager” and offering BS trade in values for your old car, dicking around with loan terms to get a particular monthly cost for an inflated purchase price.

The whole thing is setup to exploit people with poor information, and poor negotiating skills, and it makes the process unpleasant for everyone.

I mean that the price that is set allows for haggling. Could you please get off this ridiculous sidetrack.

Name another direct to consumer product that costs in the tens of thousands of dollars that isn’t market up to a degree. Boats? Yep. RVs? Yep. Houses? Yep. Heck, I went into a Brandsmart the other day & the guy started coming down on the price of a Sony Camcorder as soon as I asked the price.

The problem is, if they come down on price, they leave a of of money on the table right away. They don’t want to do that.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@control-z

The thing about Carmax is all the buyers know they’re getting screwed equally. I wonder if anyone has ever got them to haggle?

I’m not sure they will, but they might. I just assumed the premium they charge on their cars was the cost some people will pay to not haggle.

[Cisco]

@Unintentionally_Blank

There are many things about the automotive industry that are emotional in nature and don’t stand up to investigation. Another is that American cars are crapboxes and foreign cars are superior. A modern car manufacturer could not stay in business if they really created bad products. Just because I grew up in a Chevy Family and won’t buy anything but Chevy doesn’t mean Chrysler makes a bad car.(*) But you’ll find someone who thinks Chevy’s are shit and others that feel the same way about Chryslers (and yet a third who hates Honda…and a fourth that hates BMW)

Well, not unless they all make really bad products. Planned obsolescence is not a myth.

But I do agree that people who say carX or cars from manufacturerX are all lemons based on a sample size of 1 (or sometimes 0, in the Ford V. Chevy or American V. Japanese disputes) are idiots.

[Cheesesteak]

@Labrador_Deceiver

I mean that the price that is set allows for haggling. Could you please get off this ridiculous sidetrack.

Ok, I’ll leave the “allow” vs. “require” argument off to the side.

The problem is, if they come down on price, they leave a of of money on the table right away. They don’t want to do that.

I know about leaving money on the table, my job is in pricing so it’s near and dear to my heart. The thing is, they start off every negotiation assuming the customer is a big chump who’s going to pay MSRP, then force said customer through the ringer before coming down to something reasonable. It’s very adversarial, deliberately confusing, and many customers get screwed because they don’t know better.

It’s no wonder that folks subjected to this treatment aren’t shedding tears when the salesman is out of a job.

[Lynn_Bodoni]

You should be ready to walk away from any deal, whether it be a car or a haircut.

However, I don’t think that I should have to threaten to walk from a deal EVERY TIME to get the price to a reasonable level. I agree that the salesman and dealer and whoever need to make a living. I just hate going through the process to ensure that I’m not getting totally ripped off. Some people love to haggle. I hate it. I’m good at it, because I really don’t give a shit about buying one car as opposed to another, but I hate having to haggle for every vehicle we buy.

[ratatoskK]

I feel sorry for anyone who’s losing their job. Not all salespeople are evil and not all employees of car dealers are salespeople.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@Cheesesteak

Ok, I’ll leave the “allow” vs. “require” argument off to the side.I know about leaving money on the table, my job is in pricing so it’s near and dear to my heart. The thing is, they start off every negotiation assuming the customer is a big chump who’s going to pay MSRP, then force said customer through the ringer before coming down to something reasonable. It’s very adversarial, deliberately confusing, and many customers get screwed because they don’t know better.

It’s no wonder that folks subjected to this treatment aren’t shedding tears when the salesman is out of a job.

That isn’t true at all. I start every car purchase by coming down significantly from MSRP. If you’re working your way down incrementally you aren’t doing it right.

I would submit that anyone who willingly pays a certain price for a car isn’t really getting screwed badly, if at all.

[black_rabbit]

There was an interesting Explainer (sorry Cecil) yesterday on Slate:

Toyota sells more cars than Chrysler with fewer than one-third of the number of franchises. (The average Toyota dealer sold 1,589 vehicles in 2008; the average Chrysler dealer sold 124.)

Why are Chrysler and General Motors closing so many dealerships?

I’m a mushy-hearted Social Democrat, and even I have a hard time working up a lot of sympathy for businesses with such piss-poor performance.

124 cars a year. Less than three a day. On average. The margins just can’t be good enough to justify operating a dealership with that kind of volume.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@black_rabbit

There was an interesting Explainer (sorry Cecil) yesterday on Slate:

Why are Chrysler and General Motors closing so many dealerships?

I’m a mushy-hearted Social Democrat, and even I have a hard time working up a lot of sympathy for businesses with such piss-poor performance.

124 cars a year. Less than three a day. On average. The margins just can’t be good enough to justify operating a dealership with that kind of volume.

Some of that may be due to the fact that many American car companies have dealerships located in very, very small towns throughout the US. I don’t know for sure, though.

[Swallowed_My_Cellphone]

@black_rabbit

Quoted thing: Toyota sells more cars than Chrysler with fewer than one-third of the number of franchises. (The average Toyota dealer sold 1,589 vehicles in 2008; the average Chrysler dealer sold 124.)

I can totally see this. My mom’s car died and, best case scenario, the necessary repairs exceeded the value of the car by a factor of four! She ended up buying a Toyota because it was really easy and there was no haggling involved.

Um, actually, it was kind of like buying a Mac, actually.

There was no haggling. They had “packages” set up for every model, each package had a specific list of features, a specific price (taxes, environmental fees, arbitraty tax for this and arbitrary tax for that, and all hidden costs included in the price), and a choice of 5 different payment plans.

The only thing my mom thought was a must-have was air conditioning, so she got the “Comfort Package”. They also had some package for people who think their cars ought to be home theater systems, and a Deluxe Package that included all sorts of bells and whistles, and quite possibly your own body guard and a butler who will wipe your butt for you.

You pick the package you like best (or that you can afford), then you choose your payment plan The only thing that was discretionary was the value of your trade-in (and they gave my mom way more for her old car than it was worth, IMHO).

Honda, on the other hand, had the guy fiddling around with prices, trying to upgrade features, going to talk to his supervisor, etc. We were there for hours just figuring out what the estimated price would be, and it would all change depending on how much she paid as the downpayment etc.

All in all, Toyota was really nice to my mom. The Honda guy was a nice,reasonable guy, but the whol process was just to damn arduous. (The Mazda guy was a buttmunch though. I wanted to punch him five seconds after going through the door.)