I guess car dealers think I am a moron

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
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or potentially just illiterate. It all started when I decided to get rid of my old and beloved Honda Accord. It was a great car which gave me no trouble, but it did have extensive body damage and a horrible exterior. Having recently graduated and having a decent job I thought it was time for a new car.

Being the cheap and boring person that I am I was looking at mainly midsize family sedans (Accord, Camry, Altima, etc.). Of the three I actually liked the Camry the best (hey don’t laugh I said I was boring). I went to one dealership and spoke with a very nice salesman who gave me a great price on the car. He had to order it and told me to go shop his price if I wanted because no one would be able to beat it.

I didn’t really want to, but it’s as if he was challenging me. As if he was looking into my manhood and drawing a line in the sand. By God I was going to cross it. My wife and I were having lunch when we heard one of those screamer commercials on the radio. “Big Loudmouth Shyster Toyota can beat any big city deal by 1500” or something like that. We thought hey we’re not doing anything let’s go see how they will try and rip us off.

We get there and due to the fact (I’m making an assumption here) that I was driving a beat up old car and we were dressed very, very casual they figured we weren’t there to buy. Maybe just hot rod in their new Camry’s (do people actually do that). Anyway we get some kid who had maybe worked for 1 week as our salesman. We actually found a car on the lot we wanted and went inside to talk turkey.

I presented the facts of our original deal to the salesman. I told him if he could beat our deal by the 1500 we would buy right then and there. I gave them a bit of a headstart since this car stickered at 500 less than the other Camry we were going to buy.

I do not remember the exact figures but the original dealer was going to give us 2500 for our trade and sell the Camry for let’s say 22,000 to make this easy. I told the guy we were at 19,500 with the other dealer and if they could get us to 18,000 consider it a deal. Ok so greenpea goes back to the manager’s office for what seemed like an hour. He comes out with a big smile on his face. I took this to mean he felt he was going to make a deal and get some cash. In retrospect I think he may have just had gas.

He puts the paperwork on the table and says I think we can work out a deal. Great. He says we can give you 2675 (Remember I don’t actually remember the exact figures) for your trade and we can sell you the Camry for 23,500. What do you think?

My wife and I looked at each other just to make sure we heard him right. I said soooo the bottom line with y’all is 20,825. Yes he said that’s a pretty good deal. I then looked at him and asked how he thought 20,825 was in any way, shape, or form better than the original 19,500 at the other dealer. He got confused and this is where his training must have kicked in.

Working on adrenaline and instinct he said well they are only giving you 2500 for your trade, but we’re giving you 2675. I was then expecting him to try and distract me with flashing lights or something. I looked at him and said that’s great but the bottom line is you want me to spend over 1000 dollars more for a car with 500 less in options just because you are giving me 175 dollars more on my trade.

Well at this point he may or may not have pissed himself because he quickly excused himself to go talk to the manager. What was he going to say to them, “Hey boss these guys can read and do basic math. What will we ever do?”

It was at this point we just got up and walked out as we didn’t feel we needed to give this place any of our business. What may be the most disturbing about this whole situation is not that they tried it in the first place. What’s disturbing is the reason they must try this is because it works. So somewhere there is some poor schmo who pays greater than 1500 dollars too much because someone gave him a measly 175 bucks more for his trade. I guess that’s why the first guy told me to go look, because he knew what kind of degenerates I would meet if I did.

Isn’t car buying fun? I actually enjoy if for no other reason than to see how stupid they think I am or what kind of tricks they try to make me think I want to buy a car I really don’t want to buy.

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Wow, that’s pretty impressively stupid. (On their part, of course.)

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So, how can they legally advertize “we beat any deal by $1500” but then not offer you this deal? Isn’t this false advertizing (bait & switch or something similar)?

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Warning Will Robinson Warning.

The only way a salesperson knows that no one can beat his price is because the price he quoted you is a “low-ball.” It is too low, perhaps even a thousand dollars or more below the dealer’s true cost, and no one will be able to beat it and when you return to the original dealer that low price will be unattainable because of a “mistake” and you will be faced with paying a higher price or going back to the other dealers and seeing what they can do for you, again.

Anyone who low-balls you has no intention of selling you a car. He just wants to waste your time shopping his price and then to see the look on your face when you find out he was lying. It’ s pretty sick but there are a lotta sick puppies in the car biz.

Think about it: by law every manufacturer who sells cars in the US must sell them for the same price to every dealer in the US whether he buys one or a lot. No one in the same market has a significant cost advantange, so no one can give you an unbeatable price. Say I quote you $100 over invoice. Will the swine down the street quote you $50 over invoice to steal the deal? Absolutely. Do I want to sell the car for invoice? Not really. Below invoice? Not really. When you ask for a price quote as you’re walking out the door, the salesman has few good options. He who quotes first always loses because to be honest he needs to include some profit in the deal and any other dealer will beat an honest price by a small margin to steal the deal.

Say you’re shopping quote #1 at dealer #2. You’re already physically there at dealership #2. Are you going to return to car salesman #1 to buy his car if dealer #2 quotes you a price that is $50.00 less? Of course not. That is the “reward” for quoting an honest price. Are you going to get a second price quote without divulging the first quote? Of course not. You’re already there. You want dealer #2 to beat dealer #1’s price, so you help him by divulging the info. If dealer #2 is forced to make a blind quote and guesses high, will you turn on your heel and return to dealer #1 or will you spill the beans hoping dealer #2 will beat dealer #1’s price so that you don’t have to go back to dealer #1.

One can say “Who cares, that’s not my problem?” But then the salesman can say the same after he has lied to you. There are plenty of folks out there who research a vehicle and are willing to offer a couple hundred dollars over invoice to a local dealer with a reputable service department rather than voyaging over hill and dale trying to get the lowest possible price.

Quotes on cars the dealership does not have in stock are particularly meaningless. There is no guarantee if or when the car will ever get built. Comparing a price on a factory ordered car to a stock unit, then, is particularly unfair.

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Lorenzo- fear not we bought our first Toyota from the same guy earlier in the year. He did the same thing on the first truck. These aren’t factory orders, but him getting the vehicle trucked in from somewhere or preferenced from the distributor. He produced as promised and actually 5 days earlier than we expected. The truck only had 9 miles on it too which was pretty cool. Anyway I know he didn’t give me a lowball offer at least the first time around he didn’t. No one was willing to match his price on that one either since they also would have to get it from somewhere else and it wasn’t sitting on the lot. We bought it from him at the price promised and 5 days earlier than expected. He’s probably the closest thing to a straight shooter out there in the car business. I wasn’t really going to shop his price on the Camry but the little voice inside my head kept saying maybe he gave you a good deal on the first truck so he could second you on your second, third, and fourth car purchases.

The reason they never have the cars on the lot that we want is that I hate paying for all the dealer add on stuff like pinstriping, window etching, etc… All that stuff isn’t worth 1000-1500 to me so if I can get a car without it I will.

Also I do enjoy seeing what tricks these guys will pull so I don’t mind shopping around. And yes I wouldn’t sell my first guy out over 50-200 dollars, but 1500 is a huge difference to me. I wouldn’t shop him at all once I shook hands, but he dared me to so I did.

Anyway a friend of mine bought a Camry equipped like the one I wanted for 200 less than my original offer like 1 week later. It was the same month so I don’t think there were any rebate changes. Who knows, but that tells me it wasn’t alowball offer.
Bob55- I’m sure they said we’ll try to beat any price or had some fast talking guy at the end say by beat every price by 1500 we mean charge you 1000-1500 more. Who knows? With an add like that we knew we were walking into the bears den, but I figured I would give it a shot and I’m always interested to see how they try to rip people off.

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When buying cars, just don’t get excited about actually getting the car until you drive off with it, because then your expectations won’t be crushed. I just bought a car, and the BEST thing I did was call ahead and tell them what I wanted and how much I was willing to pay. If they could work a deal, I would come in. They said they had a car that would work. I went in, and they tried to sell it to me for $65/month more than I said I would pay (I would pay $3900 more over 5 years for the car that way). I said no. They tried 30 over. I said no. They tried 10 and 20 more a month. I said no. I said thanks for trying, but I guess I can’t get a car. Suddenly, the clouds parted and sun poured out from heaven or something: they came back from the secret negotiating booth and I amazingly got the car for the amount I was willing to pay. 2 reasons for this: 1) I proposed a reasonable amount, taking account of reasonable interest rates and a reasonable profit for them. 2) I didn’t get swept up in their bullshit.

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PS - I love car shopping. But I especially like car shopping with my best friend from college - he used to sell cars, and he can run them in loops.

(I still cringe that he lemoned his Saab 93 Vigan. It was awesome. He claims it “had a rattle.” I claim that he realized that the car payments were equivalent to house payments…)

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Hey son, go get your daddy cause we wanna buy us an autymobile.

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I thought this was going to be a bitchfest about how dealers assume you are an idiot if you lack a penis. Oops.

I HATE HATE HATE car shopping. I’m no good at it.

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You will be treated with respect and dignity at most SATURN dealers regardless of gender and whether you’re buying a new or used car. Everyone pays the same price and it’s less than full list price of a comparably equipped vehicle of US or Japanese make.

Great place to buy a car if you hate buying cars. Lousy place to buy a car if you love buying cars.

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I know this isn’t GQ, but do you have a cite for that? I can’t think of a policy reason why that would be true.

Also, right after the above quote you say:

which doesn’t necessarily follow from the first quote. There is more that goes into the dealer’s cost per car sold than the invoice price of the car (the cost of advertising, salaries, etc.).

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Nor does Lorenzo address the costs of floor-planning, which makes a big difference between dealers and seemingly identical cars.

I’ll also ask for a cite. What is this “law”, Lorenzo?

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Assuming that every dealer has the same invoice cost for a car (which I feel is a bog assumption), it does not necessarily follow that they actually pay the same price for every car.

For example BMW may give different factory to dealer incentives based on regions and time of year. Let’s say the convertibles don’t sell real well in the northeast in the winter time because of all the snow and the fact that few people dream of driving with the top down when it’s 10 below. BMW may see it’s convertibles rotting on the lots and may put special factory to dealer incentives on these cars in that zone. So a dealer in Maine may get 2000 in dealer cash if he sells a BMW convertible whereas a dealer in Texas may not have that same deal. Therefore the dealer in Maine (if he sells the car) has actually paid 2000 less than the dealer in Texas for the same car.

The price of a specific car may vary greatly even in the same city. Some dealers angle for low volume and high profit on each unit whereas others will cut profit to the bone in order to sell more volume. If one dealer is one car away from hitting a volume bonus they may sell that last car at a loss because they will more than make it up in bonus cash from the manufaturer. Overhead can also play a role in what you pay as well. If a car is sitting on a lot that dealer may be more inclined to cut his losses than if that same car were sitting on another lot in the same city where it is selling better.

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He is right- nice place to buy a car, especially if you don’t like haggling, or “don’t have a penis”. :smiley: But dudes? I’ll put this real simple- NEVER EVER, EVER, BUY A CAR FROM A TOYOTA DEALER. NEVER. EVER. NO. DON’T DO IT. STOP. DON’T. :mad:

Dana- whatever the “deal” you got from the Toyota saleman was- he ripped you off. No doubt. They are the worst. Consumer Reports has them the worst year after year. (The cars themselves are pretty darn good, however, it is just the dealers)

Besides, for gods sake- other car companies are selling you cars now with $1000 off, 0% APR for 5 years, and no payments for a year. Not to mention a blow job. :smiley: Even Saturn has 0% APR.

There is something to what Lorenzo says, not completly right, but the manuf can’t do some sorts of pricing. But that just covers the actual “wholesale”, there are many “dealer incentives” as bricker pointed out.

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DrDeth- Our Toyota dealer has actually been very genuine and honest with their dealings with us. Toyotas have provided my family with years and years of virtually trouble free service so I feel very comfortable with that choice. I think everywhere you go there will be good and bad dealers. I think the place that treated me the best was in San Antonio. At that time it was called Arrowwood Acura (may be different now, at least I think that’s right). I used to take my used Honda Civic to them for routine maintenance (I’d still probably have that car if I hadn’t totalled it). Eventhough it was five or six years old at the time they always treated me respectfully and would give my car a good washing and vacuuming even when I left it for a 19.95 oil change. I loved that place, but they spoiled me because now I get cranky when other dealers don’t wash my car when I take it for service.

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Satrun dealers wash your car, and throw in free cofee, tea & donuts. For an oil change. too!

If you insist, I guess there has to be ONE honest Toy dealer in the USA. Like I said- the cars are pretyt darn good, but the dealers suck. CR agrees with me on this, so I ain’t crazy.

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All you Saturn fans DO realize they average $5,000 profit on each Saturn they sell, as opposed to the “haggling” industry standard of about $1500? Right? They damn well BETTER wash the frikkin’ car. And, did someone mention a blowjob?

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Not even close. Read CR. Saturn has about the same amount as other cars. If you haggle long & hard, and the dealer is hungry, you’ll get a better deal, I’ll admit.

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What I stated is not always true in all cases. However, for example, your basic Chevy Cavalier has an average list price of about $15,000 with a dealer invoice price of about $14,200. (No kidding) Give the consumer a $500 discount and pass along any rebate and your cost of goods sold is about 98% which leaves very little for a significant cost advantage. Yes, dealers get allowances and such so that the dealer’s true cost is less than invoice but all dealers get the same allowances with the exception of progressive dealer cash which is fairly rare among the domestics. In a competitive market, non-costs of goods sold will vary somewhat but not enough to significantly affect the selling price of the vehilce.

Working on such razor thin margins, it makes more sense to try to compete based on location or added service that consumers really like that cost the dealer little.

Some dealers do not floor plan their cars which saves on interest expense and can result in a slight per car cost advantage to that dealer but he has to invest a boatload of cash to do it if he has a large inventory. Most do not go that route.

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Last weekend I took two test-drives on a Mazda lot outside of D.C. and I made it out of the showroom without leaving any traceable means of being contacted. I’m so proud of myself!
:cool:

As for Toyota dealers: DrBeth what’s gotten you so bitter about them? Not to suck the wind from your sails or anything, but it sounds like you’re generalizing based on limited experience. Have you actually dealt with every Toyota dealer in the country? or even a significant percentage? I think it safe to say there are probably more shysters in the car selling business than in most other types of jobs, but I think you’re overdoing it with the anti-Toyota remarks. Just my two cents.