To get back to what I think is Zarathustra’s actual question: there must be some black Wiccan. And Native American Objectivists. Or oriental creative anachronists. Not many. But if there arn’t- and this is the point- this is America. There will be.
Nika wrote:
matt_mcl characterizes this better as a guideline. The problem with making it the `first and only real rule’ is that as I have pointed out in previous threads, it is an inadequate moral foundation, not only because it’s not always clear what constitutes harm, but because principle, known outside of Pagan circles at The Principle of Harm is just one of a list of basic moral principles that arise in any ethos. The fact is that in most cultures, the harm principle goes without saying. The fact that Wiccans have a mantra for it is no evidence that they’re more dedicated to it any more than the many Christian mantras are proof that every Christian goes around behaving himself. The existence of the mantras in itself suggests that they are needed to control someone’s behavior.
The aspect of doing what you want, jut don’t hurt anyone is not a basic aspect of most cultures. In fact, most cultures insist that you do or don’t do things that you don’t/do want to do. The idea of the ten commandments, thou shalt do this and that. I am not dissagreeing with the moral ethos behind the commandments (so don’t jump all over me) just the idea that you are told what to believe what is right and wrong.
This statement was posted to emphasize the importance of intent and choice. Evil spells are ones with evil intent, even if the results are positive. It is this wicca who is in violation of the basic code. Wicca, like most religions can be very complicated. To understand this idea, of not hurting anyone, is one of the basic ways of expressing the love of Wicca.
I am sorry if I am lashing out a bit. I am just sick and tired of people seeing wicca as an evil, devil worshipping group of sex crazed pagans. This is the picture that has been painted of us, and it is NOT the way it is. However, just like there are evil Cardinals or priests in the Catholic religion there is evil in wicca. This upsets me, but I can only follow my own doctrine of love and compassion. The doctorine that all of my Wicca/Pagan friends follow.
HMMM…
I see Wicca as basically the same underlying superstitious delusion that informs Santeria, Voudou, and Obeah–repackaged for white suburban Anglo Yankees.
Then, foolsguinea, I’d ask you to take your opinions to the Pit or shut your gob-sucking mouth about other people’s sincerely held spiritual beliefs.
You mean you’re not? Darn, almost had me there for a second.
Seriously, why do you think this is so? I am not a practitioner of Wicca, but from what I have studied, it seems to be a very spiritual, responsibilty based belief system. I dare say it is in many ways more “moral” than a lot of the actions taken by the “Christian” church through the years. Wht do you suppose it gets such a bad rap at times? Pagens…Anyone?
Oh, and foolsguinea? You’re right, it’s so much worse that the underlying superstitious delusion of the Christian religion, not to mention all other dogmas that preach exclusivity and other thinly veiled messages of hate.
Yes, I do.
Well, as for sex-crazed…That’s a matter of personal choice, not a religious requirement
Weirddave asked why Wiccans have caught so much negative press; I can only offer MHO on this (settle in for the long rant).
Are we the only ones getting persecuted? Certainly not. Every minority, religious or otherwise, seems to come in for its share. We tend to catch highly publicized flak, though, because
1)There aren’t very many of us, so not many people have met us–which means all they know is the propaganda.
2)We are identified with a group that was persecuted before, which sets a precedent for it.
3)Our detractors have centuries’ worth of hate literature and propaganda stockpiled, meaning that they don’t have to invent it themselves.
Persecution seems to be a function of organized religions. It’s always easier to turn people against an outside target (“Look! He doesn’t believe what you believe! He must be evil and out to destroy you!”) than against inner flaws. Having an Enemy encourages solidarity within the group. Christians were persecuted by the Roman pagans, using many of the same vile accusations aimed at neopagans today (human sacrifice, blood drinking, reprehensible sexual practices, etc). When the Christians came out on top, they saved that ammunition. Sooner or later the movement would run out of steam, and they’d need an Enemy to galvanize the shee–I mean, “flocks”. They used it against the Roman pagans, and the Jews, and the Muslims, and the accused “witches” of the Burning Times, and now they’re using it against us. Religious conservatives fear an increasingly secular society; they foresee the withering of their way of life, so they fight it by any means they can muster. Unfortunately, that usually means looking for an Enemy.
Guess who showed up with bullseyes on their backs?
Dave, I’ll give you two reasons for why Pagans, and Wiccans in particular, are so often cast as the bad guy by some fundamentalist Christians:
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the Christian Church, back when it was the one, universal, Catholic church, demonized Paganism as a way of converting people to its belief system. One way they did this was by pre-empting some of the iconography. Before extensive contact with northern and western European Pagan religions, Lucifer was portrayed as a beautiful man or as a serpent. This was, after all, how he was spoken of in the holy texts of the Bible. When Christianity began to discredit the Pagan religions of Britain, Germany, and other areas, the took the iconography of their main god figure (Pan, Cernunnos, Lord of the Hunt) and used it to portray Lucifer. That’s when the Devil suddenly showed up with goat legs and horns. The Church made Pagan Gods the villian and by extension, painted all Pagans as evil. Most Christians aren’t very knowledgable about Church history. All they know is the Pagan = Evil equation.
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The Bible in several places condemn things that are paramount to Pagan religions. The first of these is magic. In a Biblical context, magic is always bad, always wrong, always wicked. In a Pagan context, magic is judged by its means and ends. Another thing that gets many Christians upset is what they see as a pervasive licentiousness in Paganism. Pagans don’t hold with the view of Original Sin, and as such, don’t view sex as being something wrong or evil. Also, women aren’t held responsible for “corrupting” men. Now, it’s my experience that Pagans throw the best party. It’s also my experience that Pagans tend to be the most open about polyamory, free love, open acceptance of homosexuality and other ideas that scare the hell out of the straights. I’m not saying Christians don’t do such things, but it’s not a part of their traditional, American orthodoxy, and it certainly doesn’t seem welcome in most Christian churches.
And then, there’s always the “different is bad” attitude of knuckledraggers everywhere. Right now, Pagans are different. Two thousand years ago, they were the norm. Who knows where we’ll be in another two thousand years.
Do you know of any black Wiccans?
Yes, several. Actually I know about 5-10 black Wiccans. It helps that I am in DC. To make it even better, I know 5-10 gay black wiccans.
How about Oriental creative anachronism buffs (AKA geeks with swords)?
Yes, when I lived in Texas there were several Asian men and women in SCA. They tended to reenact things from a Mongol type of background.
Mexican-American Promise Keepers?
Also in San Antonio, I went to a Catholic University that had a large Mexican and Baptist contingent within the university. There were a few Catholic to Baptist converts both men and women who were also Promise Keepers and hispanic. I loathed the days that Billy Graham came into town when the Baptist contingent people all went gaga-eyed over that caca-face.
Samoan PETA activists?
I don’t know any Somoan’s at all.
Native American Objectivists?
Not sure, I never discussed philosophies with my friend Jeff (100% Native, Cherokee, Creek, Seminole). He may be but I am not sure. From what we talked about it sounds like he could be but without ever putting the label on himself. He tends to view reality as a concrete phenomenon rather than an abstract which I believe is one of the principals of objectivism. I am just not sure what he would call himself though and if that simple instance is enough to make him an objectivist.
Hmong Libertarians?
Don’t know any Hmongs. I don’t even know what a Hmong is offhand but I assume it is some Asian culture.
Jewish Daughters of the American Revolution?
My friend Tara and her mother are Jewish. Her mother married into a gentile family and is also in the Daughters of the American Revolution. She has something to do with the Alamo. I never really asked her but it was brought up when they were doing street renovations in San Antonio.
HUGS!
Sqrl
SqrlCub:
Sure that wasn’t the Daughters of the Republic of Texas? They hold responsibility over the Alamo (and guard it rather jealously, I might add).
Not that a Jewish Daughter of the Republic of Texas seems any less of a rarity…
Yes, actually, I do. Went to high school with one, in fact.
Not to be the PC Police, but I think most members of that ethnic group prefer “Asian” to “Oriental”. I don’t know any Asian SCA members, but I have known some Native American ones.
As a side note, I’ve heard that in Germany they have SCA-like groups where Germans dress up like pre-colonial Native Americans.
Philbuck, I am sure you are right. I must have remembered that wrong; however, I could have sworn they were called the Daughters of the American Revolution when I left. I must not have paid too much attention to that since I really didn’t care about the Alamo. Still the other ones should be accurate.
HUGS!
Sqrl
Hear hear!! GO PHOUKA GO PHOUKA GO GO GO PHOUKA!!
I haven’t read all the way down yet, but mehtinks this could get narsty in a hurry. Wanna piss off any Pagans or Wiccans (no they are NOT the same) just spout something like this, to paraphrase the unwise Slithy Tove:
Can’t see much difference between Voodoo and
Wicca
This could be transferred to the Pit in a nanosecond. gotta go read more.
finally reads the thread through
Go Balance! Go phouka! WOOHOO! Nothing for me to add, really.
Wiccan cheering section sits down.
My personal analogy that I share with friends when questioned on this stuff is;
(Wrote a song about it wanna hear it here it go…)
The Pagans were just doing their thing, trying to make the crops grow and such and along came the Christians. Join us, they wheedled. Some did, some didn’t. To make sure that every body knew who was with who, (rather than put stars upon thars) there became parallel holidays for the C’s and the P’s.
I mean, how can any Christian logically explain the difference between Christ’s bible birthdate and Christmas?
Yule = Christmas, that’s how.
The old old story of the Mother and the Son and the Father, the earth the sun and the moon.
Kinda like the two most popular girls in school having a party on the same night to who goes where.
Except Beltane. And that’s a biggie! Any ideas, Phouka?
(And I like your site, the thing about breastiges made me laugh)
Ye Gods, I hate it when I err when I 'm trying to make an inteligtenttjka pointe…der…er…
How about Gothic beach volleyball teams?
This is appropriately ridiculous.
And the visual I got…
“Spike.” says white faced boy with pouty red lips and bad skin.
“No.” sulks his teammate, a pudgy girl with gapped teeth and Wet n’ Wild kohl smeared eyes.
I know of at least one black member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.
When the Klan was first founded shortly after the Civil War, black outlaws would sometimes dress up as Klansmen when they were out robbing or rustling cattle. They got the loot, and the Klan got the blame.