I’m really not sure where to put this, so I decided to emphasize the YOU aspect of the issue. Do you personally feel you do or do not need God to be good. I think the question inherently extends to society at large, but I wanted to aim for IMHO territory.
The question arises for me from an article linked in one of the Hitchens threads, namely Death of an Atheist, by Cal Thomas.
Excerpts:
I think this comment stands on its own and serves as the crux of Mr. Thomas’ argument.
Not sure why good needs a definer, more-so than other definitions, but I’m here to learn.
Again, not sure why we need God to define evil, but this would seem to imply that God is the “author” of evil (although Dan Brown might fit the bill too).
Hopefully not getting too far off topic with that, but if Moses et al had physical proof of God, and that renders God as no God at all, then the ethical guidelines rendered by that ersatz God (e.g. the Ten Commandments) should also be suspect.
I’m voting no; one does not need God to be good, nor to define good, nor to provide meaning to life, talent, charity, compassion, love, affection or purpose.
This thread is a bit ‘preaching to the choir’, though I’m not sure if the religious metaphor is really apt…
But my answer to the question is of course not.
I actually don’t believe in the concepts of good and evil, so maybe that is problematic within the confines of the topic as presented in the article. I believe there are actions that feel “right” to perform, that others judge as admirable and would like to emulate, and that have consequences of improving the lives of oneself and others. That’s the closest I can think of to an idea I have of ‘good’. And I think all of these judgments come only from humanity.
The author of the article is standing on very shaky ground if he truly believes that the only reason we know that giving to those in need is ‘good’ is because a God defined it that way.
I didn’t include them as arguments, more as a jumping off point. I’m not asking if you need Thomas or his article in order to be good. I’m just using that as an example of someone who, apparently, needs God to be good. (I hope he doesn’t start to question his faith! :eek:)
It also appears to me that Thomas believes that one needs the Judeo-Christian God to be good.
I think that they have to argue with atheists over this because otherwise it forces them to take a closer look at their own motivations, and they won’t like what they see.
No, I don’t think someone needs to believe in God to do good deeds. Cal Thomas asks why do good deeds, but I’d like to know why not? The inspiration is seeing someone in need and trying to make his or her life better. What further meaning is needed?
Do you believe there aren’t Dopers who feel otherwise? I have found some lucid, compelling arguments in other threads that have made me think, if nothing else.
Also, I really did mean this as a IMHO thread, so I don’t mean to preach.
I never got this whole “without God, we would all be running around raping and murdering each other” argument. First of all, as TriPolar says, if belief in God is the only thing keeping you from murdering me right now, you still have serious issues. Second (and I’m stealing from Dawkins, who puts it better than I could have), look at the progress we’ve made. We’ve abolished slavery, we’ve introduced gender equality, we have laws protecting the welfare of animals, and so forth, none of which have any Biblical support. I’d argue we’ve done BETTER without God.
I also have to point out that it infuriates me when I ask for some kind of evidence and a moron like Cal Thomas gives me a variant of “Well God gave evidence to the Israelites and they still rebelled, so obviously evidence doesn’t work and you would still reject God anyway. That’s why he doesn’t bother to show you.” My dad says that shit all the time.
My answer is no. If I had to answer why I do good things, my knee-jerk response is that it makes me feel good about myself, but there’s something deeper than that. Maybe it makes me feel more in alignment with my values. Where did my values come from? I grew up in a Christian household, so maybe that laid the bedrock. I guess that the core of my values is the Golden Rule, which is a great rule that doesn’t need to be powered by any gods.
No, I’d say exactly the opposite. It’s always seemed to me that this position is actually indicative of an intellectually and psychologically inferior mentality, and in and of itself belies a certain fundamental dishonesty. In fact, I’m immediately suspicious of anybody who expresses this opinion, much in the same way that I’m immediately suspicious of people who are afraid of guns. I’m too hungry right now to explain this well (I don’t write well when I haven’t eaten), but I’ll try to find time to get back to this after I get some food in my stomach.
No. I’m an ethical humanist atheist. Instead of anything spiritual, I get my motivation to do good from 1) a desire to improve my fellow man and 2) a desire to adhere to my personal set of ethics. Depending on the situation, I try to apply both Utilitarianism and The Golden Rule when interacting with other people. It’s worked out well so far. I donate money and/or things to philanthropic causes when I can afford to, and I’ve never committed any crimes more major than speeding or jaywalking (and that one time I forgot to renew my vehicle registration, whoops). I’ve never been arrested. I’ve never stolen anything.
Well yes, but not in the way the OP is taking it. Anything done in the name of the god of Love is good automatically and by definition, even mistakes will be corrected to be good by God Himself.
What we need God for is to correct our mistakes and make everything good, so we can live as flawed people and not get penalized for it.
I would say, to ultimately simplify things, that I follow the Golden Rule of doing unto others, etc. There is no god necessary to do the right thing.
To complicate it a bit, I know that I feel better and am a better person when I live an altruistic lifestyle. I like helping people. I think that makes the planet a better place for us all to live, but I’m not concerned that there’s a god approving of what I do.
