Do you need more faith to believe in evolution than in intelligent design?

I don’t anyone who believes either of those statements. Current thinking in biology is that all **vertebrate ** life evolved from fish (ie, the first vertebrate was a fish). There is a tremedous amount of evidence for that fact.

As for how life originally began (biogenesis), pretty much all we have right now are hypotheses. There is little, if any, data which points to any particular hypothesis being more likely correct than another.

But to summarize your title question:

  1. Evolution by means of natural selection is a proven scientific fact. You can call it a proven theory if you like-- they’re pretty much the same thing. Since there is so much evidence supporting this theory, it takes no faith at all to “believe” it.

  2. Itelligent Design has absolutely no supporting data. It is, in fact, not a scientific theory at all since it does not present a hypothesis that can be proven or disproven. It **requires ** faith to believe it.

BTW, this subject has been debate ad nauseum in this forum. I’m not sure if you can search the archives as a guest (might have to pay the membership fees first), but if you do, you’ll find many, many threads on this subject. You are unlikely to uncover any new arguments in this thread. Eventually you’ll be lead to The TalkOrigins web site.

Merijeek, I’m thinking you mean inerrant although it’s typical of creationists to cite God’s ineffability and mysterious ways when confronted with difficult situations so who knows?

Aside from the problems human free will presents for this kind of determinism, the scenario you describe makes me wonder why all the false starts, dead ends and premature die offs occurred. Why did the deity spend all this time at the drawing board with the dinosaurs only to kill most of them with catastrophic meteor strikes? He can’t have changed his mind as his omniscience would preclude it and he must have known about the meteors even if they weren’t his doing. Why did the silly fool schedule so many attempts at constructing an eye only to end up with a fragile, awkward device like our own which is essentially designed backwards anyway? Why did he design tumours, apparently as irreducibly complex as the eye, for them to attack the organism of which they are a part?

A theory of evolution can partially explain this whilst creationists, which is what the IDers are, can only shake their heads and mumble about God’s inscrutability. At least you’ll have fun on the circuit though. ID chicks will obviously go for anything. :smiley:

Oh, please. Not this old chestnut again.

Faith is belief without absolute proof. It is not the same as belief without evidence. Not by a long shot.

I have absolute faith that my mother would willingly choose to die for me. I think that she has provided ample evidence of this, but I have no proof. Indeed, the only way to prove this would be to place myself in mortal danger, and see if she would choose to sacrifice herself on my behalf.

Faith is belief without proof, but it does not preclude evidence. Not in the least.

Evolution does not require faith. Intelligent design does. For ID to have any possibility of “truth”, it must first be shown that there is, in fact, an intelligence out there capable of doing the designing, then it must be shown that said intelligence is, in fact, responsible for the design. Neither of these propositions have any evidence to support them, therefore it must be taken on faith thast yes, there is an Intelligence, and yes, it is the Creator of All Things.

Evolution does not require an intelligence. It is the product of the operation and interaction of blind forces. We know populations change over time. We know we have fossils which demonstrate life forms which no longer exist. We can perform numerous test on living organisms and determine that certain forms are more similar to others, both at the molecular level and at the level of gross anatomy. We may infer from this that all organisms are therefore related; however, that is not a statement of faith - it is a working theory which has been supported by numerous lines of evidence. All of the evidence to date points to evolution happend, and everything is related via common descent.

Not to hijack this thread unnecessarily, but it should be pointed out that first, “most” dinosaurs did not die out at the end of the Cretaceous. Assuming the inferred relationships of extant birds is correct, then many of those lineages must have arisen during the Cretaceous. If so, then birds were more diverse than were non-avian dinosaurs at that time. Most dinosaurs, then, can be said to have survived the K-T extinction intact, despite having lost many of the more recognizable dinosaurs. Second, there is insufficient evidence available to determine that an asteroid was the cause of the K-T extinction. An asteroid impact certainly occurred at around the correct tmie to be implicated, but there were other forces at work which could have likewise resulted in catastrophic extinctions - seaway regression and massive volcano eruptions, for example. The truth is the fossil record does not provide sufficient resolution to be able to distinguish between possible killers - especially considering the “killing mechanisms” for both extensive volcanic eruptions and asteroid impact would be quite similar. There is a good deal of evidence to support all three methods mentioned as potential killers, but not enough to pin the deed on any one suspect.

I realize that your comment was probably just a throw-away line, but it does seem to be taken as gospel (heh) nowadays that a) dinosaurs all died out at the end of the Cretaceous, and b) an asteroid impact did it; a) is simply false (based on the preponderance of evidence), and b) is unproven (based on lack of evidence).

In an attempt to tie this back into the OP in some vague fashion, it should come as no surprise to anyone who accepts evolution that there were dinosaurian survivors. Just because they had feathers and flew doesn’t make them any less dinosaurs, just as our big brains and relative hairlessness don’t make us any less apes.

As far as I can tell, there is no evidence anywhere for ID, and nothing in the history of life that cannot be explained without it. Aside from that, it’s a great hypothesis.

I’ve often wondered if IDers think the designer twiddled with everything, or with just the things they are not clever enough to explain using evolution. If the former the designer must have been a very busy fellow, if the latter then IDers are 99.99% evil evolutionists themselves. Did the designer arrange to toss those asteroids at earth? They accounted for a lot more speciation and evolutionary change than your average random mutation, after all.

Cite?

What do you think? It is an established fact that humans evolved from some type of ape ancestor that we share with chimps (probably about 6 millions years ago). Further back in time, you’ll find another ape ancestor that both humans and chimps share with gorillas. Further back in time, you find one that all three share with orangs. Further back…

You’re confusing two different meanings of the word. According to dictionary.com, the first two definitions of faith are:

1 Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2 Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

Your faith in your mother is meaning #1; belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence is #2.

Bullshit. There is no such definition.

Dictionary.com:

  1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

The first definition is the more general usage in which one has confidence that a particular person or thing will behave in a particular way, based on their knowledge of that person or thing’s properties.

The second definition is the one that’s applicable here.

My copy of Webster’s says:

“Unquestioning belief, especially in God, religion, etc.”

I’ve NEVER seen a dictionary definition that said anything about absolute proof.

I’m gonna say: “What are amino acids?”, Alex, for 500 dollars.

I’d say it would be from the singularity. Ultimately.

To the extent that it includes judgements based on evidence, I don’t see how it is faith. Surely one can reason with evidence and then make jumps of faith. But I don’t see how that makes faith a process including the use of evidence.

First hand experience. For years.

Although if you want to be absolutely sure, spell out the myth so I can be sure of what I’m confirming.

First, I must apologise for being as loose as to write “all life” and suggest that anyone actually believes that an amoeba, say, was descended from a fish. However, as I understand it, what is meant by “evolution” is a process whereby life arose from non-living matter and subsequently developed by natural means.

This I personally don’t believe, and it is not, I believe, a belief that flies in the face of all the evidence. To those who assert that it doesn’t require any faith to accept evidence, I would respond that they take a rather simplistic position, whereby evidence equal facts, where “facts” has been stripped of any interpretative component. I think when one is dealing with the “invisible”, molecules, DNA and the like, and with incomplete fossile records stretching back over many millions of years, then the interpretative component of that under analysis needs to be accentuated rather than played down. The “fact” that virtually every expert in the field (which field, incidentally - geology, biochemistry, etc?) accepts evolution as true needs to be submitted with the same interpretative caution, even if it would be below the belt to cite other examples of occasions when all the experts have agreed on something that turns out to be false.

Stephen Dawkins has written that anyone who denies evolution is “either ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked - but I’d rather not consider that”. I find it ironic that someone who opposes the idea of the hand of God in creation should make his point with the zeal of an evangelist or a proselytiser.

Whatever happened to the tolerant gene, not to mention the rational one?

No. What you have identified is abiogenesis: life arising from non-living matter. Evolution has nothing to sy about abiogenesis. Evolution merely states that if life is found (and we are surrounded by it), living organisms will give rise to new species through a process of natural selection acting upon random variations over time. Neo-Darwinsim further refines the theory to indicate that the source of the random mutations are found in Mendelian genetics.

There is no direct connection between evolutionary theory and abiogenesis and claims that “evolution” suggests that life arose from non-living matter are in error.

I’m afraid you understand incorrectly, then. Abiogenesis is the process whereby life arose from non-living matter. Evolution simply describes the processes which “took over” once life appeared (of course, defining “life” is something of a tricky business itself…).

The evidence is what it is. It is the interpretation of evidence – not the evidence in and of itself – that leads to the conclusion that life evolved, and continues to evolve. Further evidence supports the conclusion that life not only evolved, but did so primarily by means of natural selection. There is a great deal of interpretation involved in understanding history; however, some theories stand up to scrutiny (that is, can be falsified in theory, but have not yet been) better than others. No evidence at all supports special creation or even intelligent design. Much evidence supports undirected forces shaping and re-shaping organisms into their current (and past) forms.

Methinks you’ve not read many scientific journals or primary sources. Articles appearing within are laden with caveats for precisely that reason: any given hypothesis is open to, and the result of, interpretation of the available evidence. That’s rather the point of the process, after all: to test those hypotheses in an attempt to falsify them. Those which are falsified are discarded. Those which withstand such tests become stronger and more widely accepted. Evolution - in all its various guises, be it the fact that it occurs, the mechanisms whereby it occurs, or the idea of common descent and the phylogenies which result from such - has withstood many such tests. Components have failed and have been reworked and modified, so the “theory of evolution” itself evolves as more data are added to the mix. Whereas one has yet to even put forth a valid test for a concept such as Intelligent Design, much less been able to verify (or falsify) it one way or another. Thus its near-universal rejection in the scientific community.

That would be Richard, not Stephen.

Thanks for all the comments and apologies to Richard Dawkins for mixing him up with Stephen Hawking. Thanks for pointing that out, but I would be more interested in your response to his comments, which were made incidentally in the NYTimes.

I’m not a scientist by trade (my thesis was in sociolinguistics, critical discourse analysis, to be precise) and I’m woefully under-read. However, as a father of an eight year old I’ve come to accept that expertise, erudition and sophistication are not the only path to knowledge.

I’ve no problem at all with the survival of the fittest (commonsense stuff for anyone who’s ever kept hamsters!), but feel the problem of irreducible complexity has not been dealt with by those supporting strong forms of evolution.

As in all (social) scientific fields, there appears to be some confusion over what evolution means. Do all scientists across all (sub-) disciplines agree on your definition of the term? If so (and I could hardly believe it), how long has this been the case?

Tom and Finch covered the rest of your post fairly well but let me cover the error in your penultimate paragraph.

You have mistakenly assumed that accepting evolution is somehow in contradiction with theistic belief. It is not. The evidence for evolution is so strong, so complete and so unrebutted that denying its truth bespeaks either an ignorance of the facts, an inability to grasp the facts, self-delusion or simple dishonesty. None of those things are judgements of theistic belief. One could also say that it’s silly for anyone to still assert that the sun goes around the earth. Whether the person believes in God is neither here nor there. That is not the belief which is being commented upon.

So you have inferred something that Dawkins did not imply. He was not making an “intolerant” judgement of theism, only of scientific illiteracy.

Just so you know, lots and lots of people- including some very smart people- believe in God AND accept evolution as a fact. There is no contradiction.

I did a search on your Richard Dawkins quote. I’d have to say I agree with the sentiment but it still didn’t ring a bell for me. It’s my guess that it’s probably made up. All I could find were two American fundie groups and a German ID apologist and none of them actually provide cites to any of Dawkins’ work either. The closest they come is where one of them cites a creationist critique of Darwin.

I’m pretty sure there is no single gene controlling rationality or tolerance. If there is then it is an undesirable one if it gives ignorance, stupidity or wickedness a free pass.

But describing someone who disagrees with you as wicked is a serious thing, is it not?

Scarcely defensible, unless you evolved from a beast with no moral sense…