The 9/11 situation or the Iraq situation?
If this were only about feelings, I might agree, but in this case those good feelings were engendered by the fact that the children generally were in a much safer school. And since school safety is not a trivial problem in Washington, dismissing the program because it had these happy effects seems unwise.
What does 9/11 have to do with any of this discussion?
There is no requirement for Bush to have masterminded 9/11 (which he allowed through incompetence and arrogance, not through design) for him to have responded to it in a host of inappropriate/illegal/incompetent/opportunistic ways.
Does the voucher program make all the kids safer, or just a select portion?
Cite that the schools were safer?
The study found that children didn’t feel any safer. In fact, the data show that students felt EXACTLY as safe in the voucher schools as they do in public schools. It was only parents that thought their child was going to a better, safer school.
ETA: http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/pdf/20084023.pdf
See table 4 on page xxii.
So, your view is that Obama didn’t inherit the problems of detainee abuse and indefinite detention? That there were no other possible paths to go down after 9/11 than invading Iraq and setting up a probably-illegal detention system and a probably-illegal interrogation system? (This seems to be a hijack – this thread is about Obama, not Bush – can we at least agree that, whatever the cause or justification, Obama inherited problems involving indefinite detention and detainee abuse?)
Then, I’m forced to agree with your own view on your mental gymnastic skills.
Quite clearly, the only person who has ever been culpable for anything is Adam. Everything else was inherited! Poor Dubya!
-Joe
If you can’t see that 9/11 is the defining event of our era, then I’m afraid you are hopelessly unqualified to discuss world events.
Do you think this is actually a responsive and meaningful answer?
If you think that “9/11” is a magic word that can instantly answer any question or win any argument, then I’m afraid you may be the one who is out of your element here.
The Iraq war seems to have far more repercussions, in every way.
What, do you think they’re related?
I tend to think the fall of communism had a far more profound effect on the globe. Democratic values spread to the countries where millions toiled under oppression. The future of Europe changed in one night. The primacy of the United States was affirmed and with it gave us an incredibly heavy burden in assuring security or stability in virtually every corner of the world. The heavy hand of imperialism was lifted, meaning that subnational actors had an elevated role on the world stage, including to do things like 9/11.
I guess I’m not qualified to talk about world politics.
Our reaction to 9/11 was far more significant than the event itself. As well as the hysterical exploitation of that event by the Forces of Darkness. Other nations have endured such horrors, and will again. As you are no doubt aware, it is becoming increasingly apparent that much of our “torture” problem is rooted in a futile effort to link Saddam with AlQ, and hence to 9/11? Happily, this requires mere reading skills, rather than the mental gymnastics you abhor.
That said, a point of information: has Obama seen these pictures? Glancing over the news releases, I am aware that, in his judgement, they are not “sensational”, but can’t pin down a point where he says that he, himself, has reviewed them. Anyone?
Do you have school age children? If you do or did, who is or was more in tune with what is safe and what is unsafe - them or you?
Their *feelings *are no more or less valid than your own feelings. But neither is necessarily related to reality.
Btw, this thread is quite a fine example of a conclusion in search of a premise. In the finest traditions of Great Debates, one might say. Or might not.
I would agree. And I’m as guilty as anyone.
There are actually very few ‘Debates’ - in the classic sense of the word - on this Board.
What, you mean dead and buried?
Are you hijacking your own thread? I guess that’s your prerogative. I thought the thread, while maybe a conclusion in search of a premise, could be interesting.
Here’s my opinion, maybe laid out more clearly than I did above:
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When forced to decide among many poor choices foist upon him by his predecessor, I’m willing to give Obama some slack. I see there are two competing pressures in releasing the interrogation pictures (for example), and he’s choosing what he thinks is the less bad path. I happen to disagree with his choice. Similarly, there are many paths he could go down regarding the economic stimulus and I think he’s doing an OK job there (although not perfect).
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When forced to decide among many choices for bad situations he himself created, I promise I’ll be much harsher on him for creating the bad situation and harsher still if he screws up that path. For example (and I hope this doesn’t blow up the thread) – I thought it was a mistake for Bush to invade Iraq, so I would have opined harshly. Then, when he screwed up the invasion, taking a bad path for a bad situation he himself created, he deserved no end of vitriol (and got it).
Does that address your OP?
This isn’t about how to walk across a street or not touching a hot stove. It’s more like, is a kid being bullied in gym class? Are there kids with guns at school? Can a kid go to his locker without being harassed? I’m not sure how parents know better than kids what goes on at school.
One would think that a child moving from an “unsafe” school to a “safe” one would notice a difference. While children may not recognize dangers in everyday life, it strains credibility to believe that students – up to age 18, mind you – are incapable of grasping that their personal safety made even a marginal improvement after moving from DC’s worst schools. They didn’t say this.
There can be many reasons for this, such as that students were no longer worried about being beat up by gang members, but they were beating beat up by wealthier students for being poor and different.