Do you think Nolan Ryan used steroids?

[chicagowhitesox1173]

I know this is an old post but I found it while looking up Nolan Ryan in a Google search.

I think he used, i’ve heard a few rumors on him. Not sure how true all of this is.

1. His horse trainer went to jail for supplying college football players with roids.
2. Canseco claims he played with at least one player who used roids already in Hall of Fame. (gotta be either Hendeson or Ryan.
3. Tom House an admitted roid user was good buddies with Ryan.
4. Pitchers just don’t get better like he did at such an old age. Seaver, Carlton, Jenkins, Niekro, Perry, Palmer were all washed up and Ryan somehow becomes better.
5. He played on one of the most famous steroid user teams while playing with the Rangers.
   …There’s no real proof but I would bet that he used.

I also have Ryan ranked around the 22-25th best pitcher in MLB history…No way is he even a top 10 pitcher.

[Little_Pig]

I always wondered how steroids would help a pitcher.

[notfrommensa]

Nolan Ryan’s control has not improved much.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

@Little_Pig

I always wondered how steroids would help a pitcher.

I don’t think they help pitchers too much. Maybe just staying healthy and playing longer.

[Ambivalid]

Nm. Didnt read fully.

[crypto]

@Little_Pig

I always wondered how steroids would help a pitcher.

Steroids? Unless we are talking about muscle recovery, I would think that HGH would be the PED choice of pitchers. I imagine steroids could have their benefit as well (i have no idea how to use steroids as part of an athletic regimen, but i imagine in small or controlled doses it would help a pitcher maintain strength without bulking up, but I really don’t know.)

I read something about Ryan when I was in high school, and I have no idea of the source, but it sounded true. Ryan thought that the reason his arm never had any serious injuries throughout his career is because he never threw junk when he was a kid. He just threw fast balls and faster balls. He didn’t try to break off a curve until sometime in his 20’s, while in the Mets farm system, so his theory was that his arm was never damaged in the way that most pitchers arms are at some point.

Pitchers go through a few predictable phases during their careers. They tear a muscle or ligament in their arm (rotator-cuff is a big one and the one that ended my pitching days, as well as the ligament that is repaired with “Tommy John” surgery), they get a “dead” arm, or they lose velocity and/or control. Most pitchers without major arm issues crap out in their mid to late 30’s but there are always exceptions. But eventually, age catches everyone except the guys throwing knuckleballs (I personally feel that knuckleball pitchers could pitch into their 50’s if a team would let them.)

Anyway, very few pitchers have had a career like Ryan’s, and I can’t think of another pure power pitcher like him. If the story about not throwing curveballs until he was a professional is true, that could be the biggest reason. A curve ball puts a tremendous amount of stress and torque on an arm, and for a 12-13 year old, their arms are not even close to being developed. But when I was a kid, I can’t think of one of my peers who was not throwing curveballs (and the occasional screwball) by the time they were in Junior High and definitely by high school. Ryan apparently just brought heat.

If I had a son who was a pitcher, I wouldn’t let him throw a curve ball until he went to college. If he was good enough to play college ball, I’d probably want him to not throw a curve if he could get away with it… Better yet, I would encourage him to be a position player and save his arm.

Save his arm for what you ask? Life. Odds are, he wouldn’t be pitching in the major leagues, so having a shoulder that worked as it should would be much better than having an arm with torn muscles/ligaments and a gravel sound when he moved it.

[Ambivalid]

Or course the steroids are used for faster recovery times. And it’s not just muscle recovery but joint, ligament and *psychological * recovery as well; all of which are critical to a pitcher.

[running_coach]

@Stink Fish Pot

If I had a son who was a pitcher, I wouldn’t let him throw a curve ball until he went to college. If he was good enough to play college ball, I’d probably want him to not throw a curve if he could get away with it… Better yet, I would encourage him to be a position player and save his arm.

Save his arm for what you ask? Life. Odds are, he wouldn’t be pitching in the major leagues, so having a shoulder that worked as it should would be much better than having an arm with torn muscles/ligaments and a gravel sound when he moved it.

Curveballs might not be the problem, overuse is more likely the culprit.

A five-year study, recently concluded by the Department of Exercise and Sport Science at the University of North Carolina, found that the primary cause of arm injuries in youth baseball players was overuse. It also failed to show an increased risk of arm injury due to breaking pitches, such as curve balls.

[RickJay]

@Stink Fish Pot

Pitchers go through a few predictable phases during their careers. They tear a muscle or ligament in their arm (rotator-cuff is a big one and the one that ended my pitching days, as well as the ligament that is repaired with “Tommy John” surgery), they get a “dead” arm, or they lose velocity and/or control. Most pitchers without major arm issues crap out in their mid to late 30’s but there are always exceptions. But eventually, age catches everyone except the guys throwing knuckleballs (I personally feel that knuckleball pitchers could pitch into their 50’s if a team would let them.)

Just to be picky, it’s actually not true that knuckleball pitchers are all ageless wonders. Phil Niekro had a great season at 39 and pitched well into his 40s but was no more durable than Jamie Moyer, not a knuckleball pitcher. All other knuckleball artists peaked earlier than that and they burn out in their 40s if not earlier.

But as to the real point… it used to be common wisdom that throwing junk as a young pitcher killed your arm. I always thought that common wisdom was baloney. Now I think maybe they were right all along. For all that they now know about pitching motions, sports medicine, pitch counts and all that that they did not know 30-40 years ago, pitchers still get hurt just as often as they used to, if not more so.

Why is that? I suspect it’s because they’re throwing breaking balls earlier; your pitchers are developing a full suite of pitches by the time they get to college. At least it’s my current theory, because I can’t come up with any other explanation as to why they cannot seem to stop pitchers from getting hurt.

Anyway, very few pitchers have had a career like Ryan’s, and I can’t think of another pure power pitcher like him. If the story about not throwing curveballs until he was a professional is true, that could be the biggest reason. A curve ball puts a tremendous amount of stress and torque on an arm, and for a 12-13 year old, their arms are not even close to being developed. But when I was a kid, I can’t think of one of my peers who was not throwing curveballs (and the occasional screwball) by the time they were in Junior High and definitely by high school. Ryan apparently just brought heat.

If I had a son who was a pitcher, I wouldn’t let him throw a curve ball until he went to college. If he was good enough to play college ball, I’d probably want him to not throw a curve if he could get away with it… Better yet, I would encourage him to be a position player and save his arm.

Save his arm for what you ask? Life. Odds are, he wouldn’t be pitching in the major leagues, so having a shoulder that worked as it should would be much better than having an arm with torn muscles/ligaments and a gravel sound when he moved it.
[/QUOTE]

[crypto]

You make a good point about Jamie Moyer. But wasn’t he the guy with the pinpoint control and the 75-80 mph fastball? He just had a great changeup and slow curve, from what I understand, his fastball was anything but fast, but he kept everyone off balance extremely well

But didn’t Tim Wakefield pitch into his 40’s?
i thought phil Niekro pitched into his 40’s. I’ll have to revisit his stats.
What about Charlie Hough?
Hoyt Wilhelm?

There are so few knuckleballers out there, maybe I am wrong. You have me curious now, so I will go look up the list of knuckleball pitchers and see how old they all were when they retired.

[crypto]

@running_coach

Curveballs might not be the problem, overuse is more likely the culprit.

Overuse for sure helps exacerbate the problem.

But there is no way I believe that young kids trying to throw curveballs in little league does not stress out the arm, especially the elbow ligaments.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

@Stink Fish Pot

You make a good point about Jamie Moyer. But wasn’t he the guy with the pinpoint control and the 75-80 mph fastball? He just had a great changeup and slow curve, from what I understand, his fastball was anything but fast, but he kept everyone off balance extremely well

But didn’t Tim Wakefield pitch into his 40’s?
i thought phil Niekro pitched into his 40’s. I’ll have to revisit his stats.
What about Charlie Hough?
Hoyt Wilhelm?

There are so few knuckleballers out there, maybe I am wrong. You have me curious now, so I will go look up the list of knuckleball pitchers and see how old they all were when they retired.

Hoyt Wilhelm is a interesting case. He was like 48 or 49 when he retired and started playing in 1951 at the age of 27. Imagine if he had started when he was 21. His career would have lasted from 1945 until 1972. He possibly could have pitched against Jimmy Foxx who retired in 1945 and Mike Schmidt who started in 1972.

All those other pitchers pitched into their 40’s too. I think Niekro was 48 when he retired.

[chicagowhitesox1173]

My mistake Wilhelm started in 1952 at age of 29. I always thought he was on that 51 Giants team.

[Little_Pig]

Greg Maddox pitched 23 years. I don’t recall him ever being hurt.

[running_coach]

@Stink Fish Pot

Overuse for sure helps exacerbate the problem.

But there is no way I believe that young kids trying to throw curveballs in little league does not stress out the arm, especially the elbow ligaments.

More.

Should curveballs be banned in Little League Baseball? | CNN

Andrews and his team at the American Sports Medicine Institute did their study in a laboratory, not on a field. And they found throwing a curveball enacts no more force on the arm than a fastball.

“Little League has always been the leader in sports safety. We make changes in our sport based on data, not on feelings. We act out of scientific evidence,” he says.

However, Andrews’ office does agree that kids who pitched while fatigued are 36 times more likely to have serious arm problems.

Young Arms and Curveballs: A Scientific Twist (Published 2012)

“Science is banging heads with intuition and gut instinct,” said Glenn Fleisig, the research director of the American Sports Medicine Institute, who has conducted studies on breaking balls and young arms since 1996. “For years, we told people that curveballs were bad. Then we set out to prove it. We did not prove curveballs are safe, but we could not prove they were dangerous.”

“What we found out in the lab is true,” Andrews said. “For pitchers with proper mechanics, the force of throwing a curveball is no greater than for a fastball. But that’s not what happens in reality on the baseball field. Many kids don’t have proper mechanics or enough neuromuscular control, or they are fatigued when throwing curveballs. Things break down.

“Those are the kids I’m seeing every day in my operating room.”

[etv78]

Nitpick: Maddux.

[randompattern]

I’m pretty sure Robin Ventura thought he was on roids.

[BlankSlate]

@chicagowhitesox1173

All those other pitchers pitched into their 40’s too. I think Niekro was 48 when he retired.

Yep, and his brother Joe was 43 when he retired.

Phil Niekro won his 300th game on the last day of the 1985 season, an 8-0 shutout of division champs Toronto. What was kind of cool about it, Niekro didn’t throw a knuckleball until the very last batter. The story here.

Has an interviewer ever point blank asked Ryan if he ever used P.E.D.'s?

[chicagowhitesox1173]

@BlankSlate

Yep, and his brother Joe was 43 when he retired.

Phil Niekro won his 300th game on the last day of the 1985 season, an 8-0 shutout of division champs Toronto. What was kind of cool about it, Niekro didn’t throw a knuckleball until the very last batter. The story here.

Has an interviewer ever point blank asked Ryan if he ever used P.E.D.'s?

I know Ryan was asked “what his thoughts on steroids were”. I don’t recall him condemming players who used. If Ryan did use, he did it to stay in the game longer, there is no way that I could hold that against him when I know I would have done the same thing. I have no problem putting Bonds and Clemens in the Hall of Fame along with Rose and Sholeless Joe either.

-Barry Bonds…He played in a era where everyone used.

-Roger Clemens…like someone mentioned, Do roids really help pitchers?, Plus all these baseball insiders know that Ryan probably used but they don’t want egg on their face by having the all time homerun record tainted as well as the all time strikeout record. I cannot beleive Tom Glavine gets in over Clemens either. Tom Glavine was the union leader against testing of steroids.

-Pete Rose…He wasn’t betting when he played. He should go in as a player. The Hall of Fame is kind of a joke when the All time homerun king and the all time hits leader aren’t in the Hall.

-Shoeless Joe Jackson…As far as i’m concerned, his lefetime ban from baseball ended the day he died.

[Little_Pig]

He had a quirky windup … likened to “a cross between a windmill gone berserk and a mallard duck trying to fly backwards.”