Do you WANT him to snap?

The BBQ Pit
41

Bullshit.

It’s one thing to disclaim responsibility for one’s behavior when there’s no diagnosis, but as QtM said, after a diagnosis has been made and perhaps a treatment plan established, the sufferer is entirely responsible for their own actions.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be any context - their loved ones and society at large should have compassion for the suffering and make certain allowances for behaviors. But making excuses or absolving the mentally ill of all responsibility for their dysfunctional behaviors is an excellent way to send families down a never-ending spiral of codependency and chaos.

Some of you may be familiar with my own experience in this regard. I’m not saying Kate’s reaction was great or even entirely justified, but being angry and confused when confronted with a situation like hers is perfectly natural. The trick is learning how to express those emotions in a way that’s healthier for everybody involved.

42

I assume you mean most human beings are self-centered twats, and that non-self-centered twats are hard to find among both men and women. Right?

As for the OP, it sounds like Kate is going through a rather complex reaction. It’s not just that she’s angry and confused and therefore she lashed out at him. From the little that I’ve read, my guess is that she’s actively denying what happened. Something shocking happened in her life and rather than deal with it, she’d rather pretend that nothing happened and that everything ought to go back to the way it was. That’s not a healthy or mature reaction, but it also doesn’t make her an unfeeling cunt. I agree that she needs counseling to help her deal with this.

43

Not to be a jerk, but are you absolutely sure that was all her doing? If I were her, and, say, my fiance had been feeding me a huge line about what our life was going to be like when we got married and had kids all while he was plotting his suicide, I think I’d be pretty angry with him for not talking to anyone about it sooner. Maybe it’s not just him “messing up her plans” but is more related to what could look to her like an elaborate lie spanning months. I know mental illness is a huge deal, but that’s a huge breach of trust whether it’s his “fault” or not. Add to that the frustration of not being able to talk to him for weeks, and I might be surprised if she didn’t blow up.

Not that I’m saying that’s what happened, but it certainly seems possible.

44

I don’t think we can assume that someone suffering from clinical depression would necessarily have the clarity or self-awareness to feel that they were “lying” about their plans or that they were plotting for months to commit suicide. A depressed person can still be sincere about long range plans. He may have even thought that getting married and having kids would snap him out of his funk.

As for why he didn’t say something – look at the way she reacted when she found out. There was no love or consideration or caring in that response, just a lot of irrelevant crap about how it affects her own plans. She doesn’t appear to be a person who is receptive to hearing about other people’s concerns or feelings.

45

That’s true, but I don’t know that I’d expect her to see it that way.
In the shock following his suicide attempt and the frustration of not being able to contact him, I can kind of understand how her reaction wouldn’t be perfectly understanding. I also have a really hard time believing that everyone who’s calling her a bitch or cunt would react like a saint if their partner did this kind of thing. It’s really easy to sit back in judgement when you aren’t the one getting the call and then spending a week unable to contact the person you were supposed to spend your life with.

We also have no way of knowing how the conversation started; it’s likely that she didn’t get on the phone intending to blow up at him, but that it happened during the course of the conversation for whatever reason.

46

Something positive did come of this BEFORE the wedding…bear with me on this.

Unlike Alex, Kate did not internalize her issues and spoke out. Spazcat pointed out that she is a very positive person. Positive people tend to communicate better, even when faced with crisis, like Alex’s suicide attempt. She had a right to be upset, but like she really didn’t know HOW to express it. tdn explained that point quite well. Manda Jo also correctly pointed out that we should cut her some slack, because her track record has been pretty good up to this point. I agree as long as Kate realizes that it’s not all about her, but it’s all about them as a couple. Time will tell. The positive that I am seeing is that Kate herself is not internalizing her issues like Alex did, because she herself might be the next candidate for the next suicide attempt. Not right away, but years down the road…after the wedding and after a few babies. That would even be more tragic.

Qadgop pointed out professional therapy as the next step, and for both, before any wedding takes place. Alex needs to stop internalizing and start communicating with Kate and build a strong foundation of trust in each other and to resolve the smaller issues before they become too big and become misconstrued as obstacles too big to overcome where suicide becomes a plausible solution (which it isn’t). IMHO, suicide is an ultimate form of betrayal, especially between a husband and wife, and although they were not married, they were still on a greater level of commitment with plans being made for the future that included both of them.

Alex needs help and support, ASAP, but Kate is gonna need it down the road to retain her positive influence and if so willing, maintain her relationship and support of Alex, if they continue their plans together, Navy or no Navy.

Had she internalized her anger at this betrayal, this event might only be a stepping stone of something more tragic down the road.

47

All good points. I’m also thinking along the lines of differing communications levels and motivations.

Imagine finding out that the person you love went through something really terrible – I mean REALLY terrible – and didn’t tell you, and probably had no intention of telling you. He needed to call her.

Imagine trying to kill yourself, and failing even that. Imagine the terrible shame. He couldn’t have called her.

48

First off, let me say that I have a good deal of experience with both the Navy and serious mental illness.

I have only done a quick read-through of this thread, and so may be missing some important things that have been said, but I want to get my thoughts down while they’re still fresh.

First off, Kate does have every reason in the world to be angry at Alex. He did not handle his problems well, and even knowing that’s often part of the presentation of serious depression doesn’t negate the hurt he’s dealt to those who love him.

But, now I think that Kate, too, is not handling things well. From what I’ve read the OP is only talking about what Kate said - not the OP’s impression of why she said it. To be blunt, caring for someone who is suicidal, or borderline suicidal, is exhausting. Phsycially, mentally, and emotionally.

I’m going to guess that Kate has seen that chasm opening up in front of her, and recognized she can not do that. And that’s not something I’m going to blame anyone for admitting to themselves.

But her way of dealing with that is that she’s denying the whole issue, and trying to make Alex deny his problems. Which makes the OP’s questions all the more germane - has she realized that if Alex kept going on as he had been before the attempt that he would repeat that attempt? She may not have thought that through. Not many people like thinking about things like that.

It’s going to sound cold and callous, though - I wouldn’t think that Kate is a heartless pogrocket for making an honest assessment of her ability to help someone through this. I might think she’s a bit of a coward to make that assessment without even trying, but that’s not quite the same thing.

I do think she has started going about this, if that’s her goal, in a particularly heartless way. If this is a deal-breaker for her, that’s not wrong. But admit it up front, and explain it to Alex. Lying to spare someone hurt only makes things worse in the long run.

Actually, at this point, it’s only been a few weeks. I don’t think that the Navy has any choice but to see whether Alex’ situation is treatable before they decide whether to keep him in the ranks, or not.

I am most emphatically not a military lawyer, but my impression is that if the Navy were to choose to release this man from his contract the easiest way for them to do that would be with a Medical discharge, and an Other Than Honorable service characterization. Per the OP, it could be claimed that this man came into the service with his mental illnesses in full bloom, and he would have made the attempt anyways. Which the military has used, in the past, to refuse veteran’s benefits to servicemembers.

Without Veteran’s benefits, if the Navy dumps Alex onto the streets, he’ll be an unemployed and uninsured kid. And, speaking from experience of having a work record that shouts “Hey something’s fishy with these employment history dates!” he’ll be effectively unemployable.

Which is going to leave him in an even worse spot than if the Navy keeps treating him in the base hospital.

I have no idea whether Alex will be suitable for the needs of the Navy, but the Navy IMNSHO does have a moral obligation to try to do what it can for him, now.
SpazCat, please keep trying to be friends with both Kate and Alex. They both need a good friend, now.

(But don’t let yourself get sick trying to care for either of them.)

BTW, having been in a somewhat stressful Navy training program, can I ask whether Alex was signed up for the Nuke power program?

49

I have to wonder how much Kate knew about his mental state before this incident. If he was always happy around her and kept his misery to himself, and this was a complete surprise to her, that’s one thing. If she knew all along, then she should have been helping him cope. But I understand that this would have been a terrible burden for her. Tough on her in either case. No day at the beach for him, either.

50

Yup.

51

Good point.
I have to say that my ex husband suffered from depression but it took me a long time to realise this - and I have a background in psychology (not clinical though).
It’s odd but when you are emotionally involved, you are thinking about yourself and how you feel, not just the other person. I obviously noticed that he was depressed on occasions, I put it down to poor self-esteem, but I didn’t see that it was a regular cycle and he muddied the waters by self medicating with dope. I did work out that he needed to talk to a professional about his issues but he refused to go.

52

Reading the thread, and then re-reading the OP, one thing really stands out for me - I think you are projecting your own situation onto Kate and Alex, SpazCat. Reading what Kate reportedly said to Alex, it wasn’t actually that out of line - she wants a husband who doesn’t bail at the first sign of difficulty (Alex wants to quit the navy now, after only a couple of months in) - this is not a bad thing. Kate has a very valid point that staying with the navy and working on his issues while he has steady employment would be good for him - unless he thinks the stresses of being in the navy is what caused his depression. Reading what she said, the first impression that comes across is that she’s thinking only of herself, but after more careful reading, I’m not willing to say that’s all that’s going on.

Like tdn says, we don’t know the whole story. We don’t know the conversation they had before she said what she said. Maybe Alex figured he would quit the navy and go live in his parents’ basement and play video games until he felt better (which I believe any professional in treating depression will tell you is exactly the wrong thing to do to get better). We don’t know what stresses are in their lives, and what their plans are to deal effectively with those stresses.

If we’re going to point fingers and call people selfish, there is no more selfish act than attempting suicide. Except maybe having kids.

53

Respectfully, and I do respect you, Bullshit!

How about this? There is no more selfish act than to demand that someone continue a life doomed to pain and misery.

You have no idea what compels another to end his life. To assert carte blanche that all suicides are necessarily the epitome of selfishness is a statement of frightening ignorance.

54

All life is pain and misery, in lesser and greater amounts. Should we drown every baby at birth?

I see your point, but ending your own pain and starting everyone else’s isn’t exactly selfless. For the most part, people commit suicide because they feel life is too painful to live any more. They may be right, but the bottom line (in my opinion) is that it is a decision based on your own condition - a self-centered decision. I’m not saying it’s a right or wrong decision; it might be right for some, and wrong for others.

55

That was the program I was in.

If he’d like to contact someone who was in that program, and suffering (though I wasn’t aware of it, at the time, nor was I in treatment for it) from depression while going through it feel free to pass on my contact information to Eric. If you’d prefer a snail mail address, email me.

While he may be out of the nuke program, there’s still a lot of things that he could do in the Navy that are both fun and challenging. And if he had the brains to get into the nuke program, he may find them much more rewarding, from a professional point of view.

Of course my own experience is a bit odd - I enjoyed bootcamp.

I will say this, I’m getting more worried by the things you’ve said up thread, because of things I saw with other people while I was in the service. One of those things that’s both good and bad about military service is that allows people to live, if not comfortably, reasonably well, on very junior salaries - because of the subsidized housing, the medical benefits, and the PX/Exchange subsidized supplies.

I saw a lot of people who got married young, one of whom had enlisted so they could marry young, without every thinking about the reality of military - esp. Navy service. Regular deployments do a number on marriages. The ones that survive it were very strong, but a lot of people didn’t.

That you’re saying Kate has been “building castles” based on Alex’ enlistment bonus worries me. I’ve seen that sort of behavior before. Not all the cases I can think of turned out bad - but, many did. I’m not trying to say that I think Kate is a bad person, just that it doesn’t sound like anything but the money figures for the enlistment bonus are real to her.

If you’re in the position where you’re willing to try to talk to her about this, you might ask her if she’s realized that money that the Navy would have been giving Alex for an enlistment bonus represented a down-payment on his life? I have a morbid sense of humor, so I would joke about how I’d leased my life to the gov’t, with an option to buy. Shipboard fires* happen regularly, and not always without loss of life. Munitions/weapons fail and blow up . Errors occur in how repairs are made . For that matter, while I believe the “hot-running torpedo” theory for the loss of the USS Scorpion , I don’t think there’s any official cause of that disater, yet. (Note: With the exception of the Scorpion, all the incidents I’d mentioned happened while I was active in the service - just a five year period. I’m also ignoring air incidents.)

I believe that naval service is generally safe. I also believe that it’s measurably more dangerous than most civilian jobs. And if Kate hasn’t thought about that, she should. (And I’m not even going to get into the ease of suicide around much of the equipment aboard ship.)

Just - try to get her to look at the down sides of Naval service when trying to start a family. It’s not impossible, but it’s damned hard. Ask her to think how she’d feel seeing her little one, seeing Daddy for the first time in 6 months, and running screaming from this person s/he sees as a complete stranger.

Then ask her if that’s the circumstances she wants to start a family around.

*check out the accident listed for February 22, 1992

56

While that can be true, it can also be the case that one feels so hollow, empty, and unloving toward themselves, that they may sincerely feel everyone else is better off without them. I dont know what to call it, but it’s not exactly a selfish decision.

57

Bullshit. Depression and suicide ARE selfish. However, not in the traditional meaning.

Rather, you are in so much pain, that you cannot think of anything other than yourself. It’s not intentional, but that’s how it works out.

And while your loved ones do have to be cautious, and Kate’s way was incredibly cruel, one HAS to be forced to face up to it. And as I said, you cannot rely on your family to substitute for professional help. Love and support, yes. A cure and a treatment in and of itself? No.

58

Thanks, Loki. I’ll figure out a way to work this request into a conversation. Along with the story of how my oldest sister didn’t recognize our dad and started crying when he came back from two years in Korea.

Alex is supposed to be getting out of the hospital tomorrow so we’ll see how things go.

59

Kate has a right to her feelings, whatever they may be. What she does NOT have the right to do, IMO, is to share them in such a way with someone as vulnerable as Alex. She should have vented that to a pastor, Navy counselor (if one exists), family, trusted friend, even Alex’s doctor or health care team.

There are no kids, yet, if I read this correctly. I see her as being WAY out of line (and well into all about me territory) due to the reference to non-existant kids. Let’s get Alex through the next few weeks/months, then reevaluate the relationship etc. She jumped way too far ahead. I don’t care what her hopes and dreams are: Alex’s survival and treatment should have been foremost in consideration.

The reference to the Tylenol OD–Tylenol can and does kill people every year, especially kids. But it can kill adults, too. Your friend may well have been “into” suicidal ideation, or she may have truly wanted to off herself. EITHER way, she needs counselling, longterm, not a harangue.

60

eleanorigby, chaplains exist on base, and will often minister to the family of service members. More important, though, are the various family Ombudsmen who are associated with each command, and with larger bases.

A potential problem I see here, is that because Kate is not married to Alex, yet, she’s not only probably unaware of these services, but she may well be out of the geographic region where she might even have access to them. And, I have to be honest, I’m not sure that she’d be eligible for any of the services that the Ombudsmen might be able to point a family member to.

Now, Ombudsmen are official positions, though AIUI often unpaid - they still have some official standing with the military’s heirarchy. There are also family associations for many commands, that can act as support groups for the family members left behind.

I wish one of our Naval or military spouses could come in here to comment on their experiences as a Navy or military spouse. She’ll have a better idea just what could be available to Kate in this situation that I would - I barely dated while in the service, and was never married.