When is it acceptable to committ suicide?

Great Debates
1

In this thread asking about if suicide is bad, I posed the same question I always do when this subject comes up. To the people who feel suicide is selfish and does irreparable harm to those left behind and therefore shouldn’t happen, when can one give up? How long and hard must one fight before it’s allowed for them to throw in the towel?

After 20 years? A multiple diagnosis that doesn’t ever improve? Not being a functioning, contributing member of society? Being potentially dangerous to others? When medication combined with therapy doesn’t work? After you no longer have any income or insurance to take care of these problems? Homelessness? What??

Or is there nothing that makes it okay?

Are those in that kind of situation supposed to hang on forever until they die at the hands of God instead? So that the people around them don’t suffer, I suppose. If so, why? What is the reason for their well-being negated over anothers?

[Disclaimer: It’s been hashed and rehashed ad infinitum that certain people feel it’s morally wrong to kill oneself and that said individuals are weak, selfish, fill-in-whatever-blank. I’m not looking for those opinions here, simply why one perspective should be taken into account (that of those that remain living) and the other shouldn’t. So, for the purposes of this debate, can we please stick to the question of if there is ever an acceptable amount of time/effort past that makes it okay (for lack of a better word) for a person to then take their own life?]

If you do wish to discuss other implications, please see the thread linked at the top of this post. If you’d like to call me or my attitude names, there’s a place dedicated to this all in the Pit as well. If I’m unclear on my meaning in any way, which I’m often prone to do when I’m all up in arms, please just ask. I’d like this one to be as civil and, if possible, emotionless as we can make it.

Thanks.

2

Ok, I can’t answer every situation you’ve raised but I’ll mention a couple of cases where I think it’s OK:
[ul]
[li]When I’m done with my life, I plan to go via assisted suicide. This will be when I either am in great pain, or can no longer continue my life the way I choose.[/li][li] If my SO has gone ahead of me, and I see no reason to continue. I don’t plan to have kids, so I’m not waiting for grandkids or anything.[/li][li] If I am dying of some horribly painful disease.[/li][/ul]

I don’t see myself doing this before I reach at least…let’s say 70.

3

I’m not your target audience because I don’t feel suicide is selfish, but I do think that society should try to help, including trying to discourage suicide for those who are in the grips of a temporary problem.

The grey area is trying to help without trampling their rights. I don’t believe in forced treatment, but I also don’t want people dying needlessly. It’s a very tricky situation.

4

I don’t really think the question “When should one commit suicide?” can be answered, as I can’t imagine any sort of “rules” that could be applied to all, or even most, situations.

I suppose it might be possible to approach it from some sort of Utilitarian perspective, and say something like “Suicide is acceptable if the pain your death will cause to others will be less, on aggregate, than the pain you yourself are suffering”, but pain, especially mental pain, is impossible to quantify.

One point that hasn’t come up in the other discussion is that there are some situations where suicide is definitely the right thing to do - the classic example is the spy or soldier who kills himself rather than let the information he has fall into enemy hands, or the village of Eyam, where the inhabitants chose to die rather than spread the Plague further.

5

The short answer is: It doesn’t matter. Regardless of how many intelligent, well thought out reasons for a person to end their own life, there will always be people who will judge them and say either they got what they had coming, or they were weak willed, selfish, yada.

Yes, suicide is selfish. Because it’s all about the person committing suicide. At that point, the person is not thinking clearly, and is obviously not thinking of any of the repercussions of their actions other than “the hurting will stop.” And at that point, that’s all they need. Either people will understand this, that there was just no way around the pain anymore, or they won’t.

Many of my patients suffer from clinical depression. I honestly cannot say they shouldn’t. End stage renal disease has a very bleak prognosis. Being faced with your own mortality affects people in different ways, and until one is faced with it, there’s no predicting how you’re going to react. Pretending otherwise is senseless. I still don’t condone suicide, but I have a lot more compassion for people who kill themselves than I used to.

If someone is determined to take their own life, they will do it. There will not be a single thing you can do to stop them. And frankly, I am not sure we shouldn’t allow them to. Why force someone to continue to live in agonizing pain if they don’t want to? So you can feel some sort of moral superiority? And yes, accusing them of “playing God” by taking their own life is moral superiority. It’s their life. You have no idea what pain they’re going through, and you’re in no position to dictate how much they should have to take.

6

I’ve mentioned in this in the other threads about suicide, and I believe the problem (just like most problems) lies with religious attachments implying the “sanctity” of life (whatever THAT means). Yes, I believe that we also have human emotions that are battered when someone takes their life, but we all make decisions every day that hurt or piss off other people. I agree it’s bigger than other issues, but it’s still a personal right.

7

Ambrose Bierce defined selfish thusly:

Selfish has a bad rap.

8

Terminal illness, and perhaps painful, chronic and debilitating illness.

This a very weird question, though, since I’ve never framed the issue in these terms and I don’t condemn suicide morally. I think the problem is that it’s not the right solution to the problem of depression.

9

A number of people have said that in these threads, yet some depressions are not curable with the methods we have now. What then?

10

I don’t have any specific time frame or suffering criteria, faithfool. I know suicide has been used by many people as a permanent solution for what could turn out to be a temporary problem. And I’m not sure that there could be any sites to back up my opinion on this, so it’s anecdote time.

I have two relatives that have been diagnosed with severe mental disorders other than depression. My uncle has been in and out of institutions since he attempted suicide when he was in his late 20s (in the early 1970s). After various diagnoses, he was determined to be schizophrenic. Twenty years later, my aunt (his younger sister) was diagnosed as a schizophrenic as well.

My aunt has actively attempted suicide many times, as well as the more passive life-ending measures of raging addictions to both alcohol and abusive men. She was diagnosed later in life, so I will never know what kind of person she could have been with treatment. I do know that her self-destructive lifestyle was a horrible strain on her parents and siblings. Due to a number of reasons, not the least of which is her being batshit insane and dangerous as hell, I am not up on her current status. That’s all I have to say about that.

My uncle has attempted suicide a few times since his original spectacularly unsucessful attempt–suicide by attempted electrocution via a high voltage fence is not known to turn out well; he lost an arm at the shoulder and a leg below the knee. He can never have a “normal” life. He has been in a variety of institutions, from halfway houses to full-blown VA psych wards and the doctors would never let him come home for more than a few days because they were afraid the family couldn’t supervise him well enough. Fortunately, my grandparents and my uncle’s siblings took the responsibility for looking after him very seriously and as far as I know, he never made a suicide attempt while on leave.

He’s still alive …been in some type of institution for over 30 years now, constantly on various meds to control his symptoms, seeing his family for short visits a few times a month*, not allowed to have any kind of personal life.

I truly believe my uncle should have been allowed to commit suicide. The man won’t die of his illness, but he isn’t living either. And the doctors have known for a good long while that there would never be anything that could be done for his real problems–the physical disabilities are nothing compared to mental illness. When his medication is working he is miserable realizing that this is all there is…living in an institution, hoping that your brother will remember to leave $10 for the next week so you can have a break with your “friends” and buy them all a coke or candy bar; wondering how long until you can’t trust your mind again.

And there is my Pit post:

I just can’t support a ‘suicide is not acceptable anytime unless you are dying of a terminal illness within x weeks/months’ stance. I will rarely ever know anybody else’s situation well enough to pass judgement on the decision. This does not mean that I would not be hurt if someone I loved decided to commit suicide–I would be. But I also don’t think that people should have to suffer forever for someone else’s happiness.

I’ve rambled enough for what is basically an IMHO post.

*There is a schedule of who goes to see him; my dad, my two uncles and non-crazy aunt take turns and they try to keep him as close to where they live as possible. The nieces and nephews used to go, but he kept forgetting who we were and it made him uncomfortable. Family reunions are getting a little iffy.

11

I’m not sure there IS a solution, since as far as I know we’re still treating depression, not curing it.

12

Suicide is certainly a solution to depression. I hope better ones are devised for those who haven’t been helped by current treatments.

Also, it’s important to reiterate that depression is not the only mental illness that can lead to suicide. Other problems can be even more damaging and just as intractable.

13

I think this definition is perfectly appropriate in this case.

Assuming that the person has an objective reason to end his life (as opposed for instance to being depressed to the point they’ve lost touch wit rality, like a friend of mine who thought that he was so worthless that his 3/4 yo old daughter would be better off if he died), then nobody has any right to say that he must hold on and suffer for their benefit.
When push comes to stove, everybody has the moral right to put an end to his own misery, IMO.

14

I’ll try to be brief and go in order…

Since I think people do have the right to commit their own deaths, all I can add to this is that I see absolutely no problem with it. Looks like you’ve thought it out fully and are capable of making those decisions. Can’t imagine what more one could expect.

Oh, I don’t care if you’re my target audience, I’m just glad you showed up. :slight_smile: I agree that we should do as much intervention as we possibly can to help people in a way that prevents suicide while improving their life. I also mourn for anyone who does give in to temporary pain because they can’t see past it. However, it isn’t those folks that my question was about (so much) as the ones who are basically treatment resistant and therefore stuck in a perpetual hell. Tricky indeed.

Tevildo, that was a very insightful post. And I agree with it as well. I wonder how many people would have preferred Andrea Yates to kill herself when she’d wanted to rather than her children.

I guess with quotes that is long enough. I’ll continue in the next post.

15

I appreciate the perspective that you bring to this and can’t say how truly appreciative I am that you re-thought your position in order to try to better understand. That’s beyond a wonderful thing.

The only thing you said that I’m not sure where I stand on is the whole “Suicide is selfish.” meme. Yes, it is in the fact that it ultimately comes down to being about you and only you. However, that negates the possibility (unless that was your intention and if it wasn’t, I apologize) that someone has forgone their pain forever in a desire to NOT harm anyone else. I suppose if I really thought it should be labeled, I’d put it under ‘tunnel vision.’ I mean, when you’re there, it’s not very many people that can consistently keep their eyes on the sky they can’t see or birds not heard. You fight everything just to keep the dirt from caving in on your head and suffocating you.

I’m right there with you and am always thrilled when you add your reasoned responses about this to these types of queries.

Fear Itself, I really liked that. I’ll have to email it to my mother sometime after she’s gone on this particular bender that I’m a selfish < whatever > because I haven’t kissed her ass this week. :slight_smile:

I’m not sure where I came across as talking solely about depression, but I’m sorry for giving that impression. I meant those who deal with severe, recurring, possibly untreatable mental problems in general. Hope that helps.

stretch, thanks again for answering, both here and in the Pit. I’ve known several acquaintances that have committed suicide and it is indeed heartbreaking to handle, especially for family members (it is so horrible if there are children) that feel responsible. For those who try but don’t make it, like your aunt, they are a terrible strain/burden on their loved ones. I know I have been, which has just been one thing of many to drive a stake through the heart of my marriage. I’ve lost everything and intentionally alienated all else because the only one I wanted to suffer through my shit was me. Of course, that ended up being impossible since my husband refused to divorce me.

Everything else you said hits the nail on the head for me. Certainly regarding your uncle. That’s one of my last giant fears… only having permanent institutionalization ahead of me, with some Lithium and ECT thrown in for good measure. ::: shudder :::

Best wishes to you and Mr. stretch.

On to number 3.

16

I don’t know, because I don’t know enough about depression. But a friend who had been severely depressed for years, was spending half her life in institutions,whose life had been generally miserable essentially from the start, and was becoming more self-destructive with each year passing eventually commited suicide after many failed attempts and I honestly can’t tell it was a bad choice. I strongly suspect she would have ended like ** stretch ** 's uncle. Who would want that?
I’ve also known a man who took his life…simply because he didn’t think it was worth living, I think. He was quite wealthy and successful, had no serious problem. But he had always been detached from everything and mostly everybody, and didn’t think life had any point. It only took him (apparenty) a failure in his career to commit suicide. He was a bright man, and though I’ve never known him closely, I’m quite convinced he thought this over, and made his decision with a clear mind. I suppose it was his right.
And while I’m at it, another friend commited suicide, some years ago. This left everybody, besides devastated, completely puzzled. Nobody has any clue about why he did that. There was nothing in his life that seemed to justify or explain such a thing. An “out of the blue” suicide. I can’t help thinking that had he told someone about what was bugging him, whatever it could be, it could have been avoided.
And finally this friend I was mentionning in my previous post. He has been contemplating suicide a lot, but in his case, I think it’s totally related to his depression, and that, despite having a really hard time, he certainly has the potential to live an happier life. He’s just completely unable to realize it. If he was to take his life, it would be IMO a completely unwarranted death and a shame (not even mentionning devastating for his daughter, despite him thinking the contrary for no even remotely sensible reason).

17

Sorry clairobscur, didn’t realize you were the only one I’d missed. :frowning: You’re friend sounded like someone who might have been helped if they’d been able to treat him (long enough? with different medication? better cognitive therapy? – I’m not sure, but whatever if it helped). It’s for them that we need to work harder on our mental health care systems. Because so many people do fall between the cracks and the attempts made are akin to throwing darts at a moving target in the dark.

Other than that though, you shouldn’t have to hang on to prevent someone else’s potential (and that is important when you consider reality versus future) reaction to your death. If your existence is intolerable and nothing ever makes it better and by extension you DO fuck theirs up as well, then it would behoove everyone to simply face facts.

I mean, if you continue to live when you’d rather not (ie: Yates again), their pain is just as perpetual as yours is. At least when you stop, they at least have a chance of overcoming what is now PAST.

18

Indeed. But this friend didn’t commit suicide, as I mentionned in my last post. I’ve probably been unclear.

The fact is, he’s mostly not treated at all. He doesn’t think he can be treated. there aren’t enough psychiatrists, here. They’re overwhelmed, and as a result the cost of consultations is increasing, whch doesn’t help for someone living on disability like him. Hospitals and other public mental health institutions don’t have time for him because…basically because he isn’t batshit crazy. They’re willing to write prescriptions, but not much more.
He did find a psychiatrist, though, and despite it being a little difficult could find others…but he just don’t believe it helps or will help. He knows he’s depressed but doesn’t seem to realize that most of his bad feelings, worries and despair are caused by his depression. He just perceives his depression as another burden instead as the cause. He thinks he’s assessing his situation objectively, like in the case of his daughter. He really thinks he’s worthless, an awful father who won’t ever be able to do anything positive for her and that she would be happier without the spectacle and burden of an ill, depressed, worthless father.
Yes, I think he’s a living example of someone who could be helped and of a suicide that can and should be prevented. By the way, if someone has some good advice or suggestion about what to do/what to say in such a case, I’m willing to listen.

19

It is acceptable to commit suicide when one is prepared to die.

Not trying to be glib, but it anything can be deemed a personal decision, this would be it, wouldn’t you think?

20

Death’s a solution to any problem, major or minor. The joke goes that decapitation is a permanent solution to headaches and haircuts. As I said the first time, I don’t think it’s the right solution. Even if there’s no other permanent solution to the problem, I don’t think that’s an endorsement of suicide.

Duly noted.