Suicidal Selfishness?

Great Debates
1

Over here, I asked this question (paraphrased), which never got answered because, I’m assuming, it was late in the game and got lost in the shuffle:

“For all those that believe that people who commit suicide are cowards selfish, what do you think of the other people, who struggle daily with mental illness or whatever, are in terrible, terrible pain (whether it makes sense to you or not – we’ll assume that they are for the purpose of this hypothetical), are doing whatever they can to fix it and have been for years and yet ONLY stay alive so as not to hurt their loved ones?”

Furthermore, I added (again paraphrased):

They, theoretically, could wait in vain, even with help (medications, treatment, the whole nine yards), until they die at the natural age of, say, 96, still miserable and hurting, making life for everyone around them more difficult and problematic for millions of reasons. Who then, in that particular scenario, because they obviously weren’t sticking around for themselves, would be considered the selfish ones?

So, if that were to happen, who then would truly have been the ones who couldn’t deal with the loss? If we rule out the actions of the person in question (IE: their mental health, etc.), what do you make of those who insist they live? Is that ALWAYS better, no matter what? Even if it wrecks everyone else’s lives (as in my own case, where I’ve lost my marriage, our finances, the other things that made ‘me’ me and almost all my loved ones), what is the proper thing to expect of them, the family? The friends? Co-workers? Should their opinions/desires take precedence over the suicidal person? Is it perfectly acceptable to let someone reach old age in the above state of mind, purely because of the wishes of others? And if it IS ok, and they person has spent their entire remaining years in absolute misery and only wanted to die, then why has their need been usurped by anyone else? Why? How does this enrich anyone’s life when it’s lived in such an unhealthy, unproductive, denigrating (among multiple other reasons) way? Can anyone explain why the mantle of ‘selfish and cowardly’ does not fall in that direction? If not, then elaborate on how these loved ones are helping the person who’s needs most aren’t being met.

I hope I haven’t worded that too badly for anyone to understand. As usual, I’ll try to clarify over and over if I’m not making any sense.

However…

DISCLAIMER:[ul]
[li]This isn’t about the selfishness (cowardess, stupidity, attention whoring, dramatics, revenge, etc.) of committing suicide. AT ALL. We’re looking past that fence to another pasture.[/li]
[li]The most common perception (if you’ve been there or not), is that killing one’s self is a heinous thing to do and that everyone (in general) views it as previously stated; selfish, cowardly, a permanent solution to a temporary problem, etc. We’ll go with these assumption for the majority of the population so it’ll be unnecessary to point them out again. Or repeatedly. Can’t say that enough.[/li]
[li]Everyone who has a modicum of sense knows that suicide hurts those left behind. Not just family (children, parents, spouses, siblings, etc.), friends, but co-workers, schoolmates, exs, neighbors, acquaintances, the medical care professionals who have to clean up after you, etc. Again, this is a given and it would be reprehensible to think otherwise. Many realize that and only end up there as a last resort. LAST resort, after careful consideration and seeing no other way out by then.[/li]
[li]In suicide, the person committing it, cannot see every problem their death will cause, and therefore, unseen circumstances can result. I finally understood that, by the above referenced thread. It appears to be like having children, even if given an instruction book, every. single. issue. cannot. be. covered. No matter how in depth. Someone you knew from 6th grade could stumble across your obituary 4 states away and be profoundly influenced because they never believed “you could do something like that.” So, the effects are too far reaching, that it goes without saying. These people go ahead because that part can no longer make the decision for them. The cons out weigh the pros by too much.[/li]
[li]The ones left behind will face the difficulties of dealing with the mess… explaining it to others (like their, possibly, young children), hatred, potential mental problems of their own, having to live with memories, both good and bad, the clean up, etc. Going back to the same house. Nightmares, never-ending grief, missing them, thinking they should have done something different/saved them/known. They’ll hold themselves responsible. Wish they’d had one last chance to tell them they loved them or they were sorry. These are, sadly, unavoidable if said person has decided this will be their course of action. Doesn’t make it right, but it does make it, unfortunately so. Therefore, they go ahead despite what’s left in the wake. And, we’re talking about not talking about prevention here, but the other side of the coin.[/li]
[li]Once more, there’s no need to point out how {mantra} selfish, wrong, immoral, cowardly, stupid, evil, Satan-inspired-going-to-hell-and-God-disapproving/damning, devastating, will leave a legacy or anything else{/mantra} committing suicide is. We know that. Boy, do we ALL know that. Even if you’re suicidal at the moment, you haven’t forgotten. Nor do most (although there are probably a small portion) do that without putting a LOT of thought into it. It’s not a rash action, not typically. They’re not trying to get back at anyone, not seeking attention or just wanting to stir up some drama and posthumously watch with glee at how loved they were (that whole “that’ll show them” approach). IMHO, of course. But can we please leave those sorts of observations out of the debate since they’re obviously universally (by far) held beliefs? And this isn’t what that’s about anyway. Gotta focus on the actions of the non-suicidal for a change. We might need the help.[/ul] [/li]
:frowning:

In conclusion, I welcome personal stories to illustrate any points, but I’d like for anyone to refrain from name calling, being terribly (guess in GD some is unavoidable) judgmental or pointing fingers and railing against those who’ve done this already or might be entertaining thoughts. I’d pray to keep this as respectful as possible, although I realize that it’s a highly charged emotional issue with lots of real life counterparts that have pain still surrounding it. For that, I’m sorry. Very sorry. That’s what’s partly served as a deterrent for me for many years. Again, I simply need to know about the flip-side. That’s all and with Dopers being the most intellectual folks I know, I felt I could get plenty of great replies without any knee-jerking.

Thank you all for any help with this. I struggle with much of this on almost a daily basis. So, I’m appreciative of all responses. Thanks once again.

2

Addendum: Right now, as I’ve said in the other thread, I’m in no harm, in therapy and on medication, with plenty of professional care, and support from the most wonderful, helpful and unconditionally loving person alive. I am ok. Not going to off myself any time soon. I mean, there’s no way I can miss Halloween this year.

So, I have a macabre sense of humor, that’s what’s helped me cope a lot so far. :slight_smile:

Therefore, there’s nothing to worry about, to email a mod or look my ISP/address/etc., up to call 911. I am not alone and currently, I’m no more than my usual amount of depressed and the like. Please don’t be concerned. I repeat, I’m fine.

Thank you for caring. (Especially if anyone shows up from the previous quasi-debate… there were several that gave me some much needed encouragement. You guys, and y’all know who you are, are wonderful!)

3

Laudable as your attempt to get everyone to agree that sometimes suicide isn’t selfishis, faithfool, I don’t think it is even necessary. The contention that suicide is selfish attention-seeking is anything but universal. I happen to think that it is a contention held only by those with absolutely no understanding of depression and mental illness whatsoever.

Indeed, if somebody suffered constant misery and torment just because their neurotransmitters weren’t functioning properly, I would consider that I was being selfish by applying pressure on them to continue their suffering just to assuage my guilt and grief, just as it would be selfish of me not to turn off their life-support machine if they were in constant and untreatable physical agony.

I wish you peace, ff. And even this wish is partly selfish, since I do not wish to be deprived of your input to these boards, which I feel are a better place for your input.

4

There aren’t very many convincing arguments not to commit suicide.

Pascal’s wager is nonsensical, in that it equally proves the existence of the Easter Bunny.

The tactic of pointing out the many people who have it worse is double edged; more people have it better, making any given life less valuable (instead of more) if using this argument alone.

The selfishness argument is completely without merit, as is is exceedingly selfish for the loved ones to require a suffering life to continue in order to lessen/avoid their own suffering.

Condemning suicides to hell is fallacy, as there are several suicides in the bible. Sampson was one, and many would argue that Jesus committed suicide-by-cop.

To argue that you are interfering with God’s plan, or the natural order of things, by ending your life glosses over the fact that you commit the same meddling trespass when you save a life.

5

Oh, thank heavens at least y’all understood what I was talking about, my long-winded gibberish. I stayed up last night, trying to figure out a better way of explaining myself, when I stumbled across about a month old thread on snopes. Per mod permission, (thanks for responding so fast!), I’m going to repost the link here in case anyone wanted to see other’s opinions of basically the same thing, but obviously better worded and shorter (which, apparently, isn’t my forte’)…

simply titled “Suicide” (I don’t remember if snopes has a policy about posting to zombie threads [I used to post over there too, but it’s been quite a while], so if any of us have shared memberships, please keep that in mind0. Anyway, if you can treadge through about the first 7 pages, there are lots of well-thought out ideas. I was amazed at as many folks who felt like I do. I thought I was pretty much alone.

SentientMeat: I really thought that it was a universally held more that suicide was NOT the answer (fill in the blank for any of the reasons already listed). Is it simply something widely felt in the US? Or by those with strict religious/sanctity-of-life beliefs?

I do agree that, for the most part, those who think like this don’t grasp the concept of depression, etc., especially in a long-term, treatment resistant (but complying) individual. However, I know at least one who’s been there – as in, has the same problems too – and others who have experienced being the caretakers of such people and then left behind, who still don’t seem to get it.

Furthermore, you’re spot on (IMHO) with your analogy about ‘pulling the plug’ on someone languishing away on life-support. I think it would be a nigh impossible task, no matter how noble or necessary, to be the one to make the decision. But I’d like to believe that if it ended their suffering, then it wouldn’t matter how much it would cause me now or in the future (or even if forever), then I’d be able to do it and come through for them. Their needs would trump my own.

Thank you so very much. It’s one of those shocking revelations to find out that on such a huge board, a member who’s been here much longer, even knows who you are. And selfish or not, that’s touched my heart today. I say this over and over, but I can always use this. Again, I’m so appreciative.

Ellis Dee: I never thought to use Pascal’s wager as a counterpoint to what most people feel. And as much as it’s used around here to disprove an argument, you’d think I’d remember. Thanks for adding it. Also, I’d noticed when people use the “there are so many worse off than you” approach that the opposite was all those doing better, but since I always felt I should focus on the former, bringing up the latter, when someone (however misguidedly) was only trying to help. Besides, it would make you feel like you (in the general sense) were being petty and pessimistic. But I wonder why that side is never considered or mentioned?

Biblical suicides are another interesting position… I’d certainly never thought of Jesus’ death as “suicide by cop” although it could certainly be interpreted that way and many feel it was a form of suicide. As was Judas, in the same sense. So, if that were true, than I don’t see anyway that there could be condemnation. And, is there anywhere in the new testament, that specifically states suicide is the ultimate sin? In my church-going days, I don’t ever remember any, but I wasn’t looking for it either.

In the context of interference, you are correct that both ways (saving a life versus intentionally killing yourself off) are a wash in the natural order of things. Just couldn’t come up with a compelling way to say it, such as you have. Thank you.

Well, I don’t want anyone to think I’ve only wanted one side posted here that believed the same as I, so please feel free, any of you with a dissenting opinion, to share it. I truly want to understand why the suffering of those left behind is more important, or holds more sway, than the lifetime sentence from mental problems imposed on those who stay alive for their loved one’s benefit rather than their own.

Thanks once more for replying, you two. I was beginning to think this was going to sink like a stone with nary a comment but my own.

::: bows in gratefulness :::

6

Just a thought:

A lot of the ‘disclaimer’ stuff that you are taking as fact are results of cultural attitudes towards suicide, not the result of suicide itself. If one could end one’s life with the aid of doctors surrounded by loved ones, for example, there would be no horrendous messy clean-up, or spectre of a grusome death lingering in the kitchen. It’s only the furtive, sudden, and ‘evil’ nature of suicide that leaves the kind of horror and loose ends you’re talking about.

7

Even without your emphasis on “physical” I agree. I’ve always felt the “suicide is selfish!” is completely ridiculous for several reasons, the least of which is that the “…because they’re not thinking of my feelings in the matter!” is an appeal to one’s own selfish tendencies. There is also the tiny matter that selfish behavior and suicide are downright contradictory by any normal (i.e., in this case, people who speak English) interpretation of the word. Generally, selfish behavior includes hoarding, other kinds of exclusion, and the denial of the relevence of other people’s wants and needs for the sake of self-satisfaction. Suicidal people, nearly by definition, are rather completely unsatisfied, as a first point, and as a second, I have heard of no testimony that any suicidal person seeks satisfaction by their act; rather, it seems they seek a lack of dissatisfaction. Only the sternest dichotomy (or perhaps a utilitarian, snort) would demand we treat a lack of dissatisfaction as satisfied when the perfectly good English words “coping”, “bearing,” or “tolerating” seem to encapsulate the condition of not being satisfied and yet not being dissatisfied; which is to say, a person seeks to find a way to alleviate their dissatisfaction through some mechanism. For a suicidal person, that mechanism is death, plainly the absence of feeling at all (which, I should say, is hardly a state of satisfaction).

8

I’ll just quote you rather than attempting to phrase it so well myself.

I admit that I’m an outlier, both because of my history with suicide (a boyfriend, two cousins, and a coworker) and because of my attitude. But I’ve never understood either the tremendous amounts of vitriol/blame that get laid on suicides or attempted suicides or the idea that it’s fair to force someone to go on living who simply doesn’t want to. The decision to commit suicide can be rational. I’m not claiming it’s always rational. But it can be.

9

They are no more or less selfish than yourself. There IS always a chance that things could get better… new medicines, new therapies… an epiphany or two. Even if half your life is over. What worth is 20 years? To you, maybe nothing… to them, much more.

You have not tried everything. There is always something that can open up the path that leads to eventual contentment. Suicidal ideation and depression is a marriage of biology and environment; can anyone claim that either is dominant? I don’t think so.

10

sorry, if this does not apply to you, faithfool… more for the hypothetical person you describe. As long as a chance exists, none are selfish. How the death happens does not matter because the end result is the same. There’s no way to measure suffering, so it is irrelevant.

11

On some levels everything we do is “selfish.” The suicidal person who stays alive for the sake of the welfare of loved ones still does so because she or he wants to have whatever satisfaction comes from doing the kind thing. So I don’t judge selfishness too harshly unless someone never considers the feelings of others.

I hope that no one in anguish would perpetuate her or his own life just to satisfy my own selfish needs. And I know that there is pain worse than death. I have experienced it.

And it is hard for me to fault anyone who makes the judgment to take his own life during a state of depression when he is suffering from an illness which affects the very part of the brain which helps him to make sound judgments. Aye, there’s the rub!

We really don’t know that there is treatment resistent depression. We know that some depression is resistent to the treatments that are available at the moment. It would not surprise me at all to see depression that is related to chemical embalances and genetics eradicated within a short time.

That’s why it is so important for someone to hang on if he or she can bear it.

“Selfish” is one of the last adjectives I would ascribe to you, faithfool. I’ve noticed how much time you take in thinking about and responding to everyone’s posts. You are very giving. I hope that you can continue to find the strength to give the real you that exists behind it all a chance to finally breath free.

I also think that you are much, much stronger than you may be aware of.

BTW, in the other thread you mentioned that you thought that I had had it worse than you. There’s really no way to judge that and it doesn’t matter anyway. Just know that there are many here who do understand and many who have experienced relief. Feel the warmth from our hearts.