Quite enjoyed that, very funny in parts, tied up/confirmed some parts of the River story. I particularly enjoyed that Moffat essentially used The Numskulls, from The Beano, as characters. He’s a bit older than me, but many Brits our age(ish) will have recognised the reference, and laughed too. In addition, another slice of Rory awesomeness, a tender moment between Rory and Amy, and another confirmation that the Doctor is racked with guilt.
I think he’s building up to fake his own death, to give himself a bit of a clean slate.
Well, the doctor could go into Amy And Rory’s past and stay hidden from Mels.
I don’t remember the comment about meeting her at the wrong point in her time-line.
And I do think that there have to be a lot of exceptions to the rule of his future is her past. Because, for example, in-between her no longer wanting to kill him, and his arrival at Demon’s Run, they went on a picnic together. Not to mention all of those adventures at the diner (in The Impossible Astronaut) that each of them had in their respective diaries that we haven’t seen on-screen.
I think the Doctor will die. Whether it’s the original or the ganger or some other version or copy is yet to be seen.
I liked River’s throwaway line about gradually making herself younger bit by bit just to mess with people - which would neatly explain why she looked older upon regeneration than she did when she died in the Library.
Didn’t the ganger Doctor already get turned to goo?
And it seems River is responsible for her own creation. First as Mels she clues Amy in on Rory not being homosexual getting them together in the first place, then as River she gets Amy to remember the Doctor during the wedding (doesn’t do weddings, eh?) without which she never would’ve been conceived in the TARDIS. At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out she also was somehow behind the plot to kidnap baby Melody as well.
As for how killing one person would make her such a criminal of note, well keep in mind, killing the Doctor is technically genocide.
Well if it is not then they have some fancy writing to do - Smith’s Doctor is going to have to end his run and replaced sometime before the 200 or so years is up. We never quite saw Doctor Goo liquified and The Doctor implied that he might be able to reform from the goo with the help of the device he had.
What we are pretty sure of now is that River is viewed by future history, in all possible timelines, as killing an older The Doctor who is still in Matt Smith form in Utah, at least according to the miniature Justice League folk. So we are at least supposed to believe that River is in the astronaut suit.
We also know that for now at least River views that she has already fulfilled the directive of her programming. She made sure that he was dead and that accomplished she could make him live again. And that she now cares about him.
Agreed. Clearly that rule is not so strict. This meeting has to out of order or it should come last for the Doctor.
That was brilliant. We were all supposed to and did and then to feel played with that this time it wasn’t (Psych!) But then that just set us up for the Hah! Double Psych! Should’ve stuck with your first thought! It was toying with us by putting in plain sight. Who’d think that a girl named Melody who did classic River Song things would actually be Melody do the things classic for her to do in her future?
As for the state of grace circuit, I’ve also got to wonder if the Tardis allowed itself to be shot in order to get them to where they needed to be?
If River does kill him or a version of him then what are the circumstances that it occurs given that she feels she has already done what she was programmed to do? And how do they get history viewing The Doctor as having been killed and even classifying that as a war crime, while not ending the series, and allowing Smith to end his run before 200 years?
No – the situation reminded me of Meet Dave, but the multi-tentavcled security robots had, IIRC, no counterparts in that film. They’re Spongebob Jellyfish.
I completely understand how you feel. I have no desire to be led up a bunch of blind alleys by smirky producers and writers who just want to string us along to the next commercial and the next season. That Lindelof/Cuse lesson, I think, was not lost on Moffat. I really do honestly believe he rewards his viewers, and respects Doctor Who fans. I hope you hang in there to the end.
For instance, would it make you feel better to realize that the first time the Doctor meets River Song in “The Silence in the Library”, she appears as a mysterious and somewhat menacing figure in a white, helmeted space suit? I had forgotten that, caught it as a rerun on BBCA the other day. Couldn’t stop grinning. You may find these long arcs tiresome, I know many do, but I believe he has had this story in his head for a long time. I don’t mind at all if he spins it out a little.
Those “best of” specials can go piss up a rope, though.
I had all sorts of multiquotes and shit from earlier in the thread to reply to, but you summed up my point of view perfectly. I loves me some Dr Who. I grew up with Dr Who. When it came back it was brilliant, then RTD did one Deus Ex Machina too many and now Moffat has turned it into an utter mess.
I think part of my problem is that a show like this is a poor substitute. Either have a proper ongoing story or individual standalone episodes, this “try to be standalone but keep hinting back to shit from before” is tiring and, frankly, self-indulgent.
As far as I’m concerned, Moffat is making this show the best it has ever been. I cannot agree with any of the complaints I’m reading. Honestly, is it really that complicated? I’m not having any problem following it, and I’m loving the long story arcs.
Some brilliant humour in this episode, with Rory being fantastic (“putting hitler in the cupboard” being the best line). A load more questions thought, including the oldest question, hidden in plain sight. I’m guessing this question is “Who?”
The only part of this episode that I didn’t fully understand was why knowing that her future self was River Song, made Psycho-Melody suddenly turn good and sacrifice her regenerations to try and undo the well-executed murder she’d just plotted.
I mean, I get that’s what happened, I just don’t follow it myself. If I was the psycho and I’d seen that River looked like me, I’d just shrug, say “meh” and worry about it later. If I worried at all
I’d go one further - the question is “Doctor - who?”
Fair enough that this wasn’t properly explored, but at least with Moffat you feel it will be picked up again later. If it was RTD, it would be forgotten.
I’m not sure how much say River had in her assassination attempt. She has been conditioned from birth to do it, but it doesn’t mean she actually wanted to do it. It might be like a post hypnotic suggestion kind of thing.
I think it had something to do with whatever the Doctor whispered in her ear. The combination of those words and knowing who River Song is, or becomes, added to her fulfilling her programming and having her burden and purpose lifted, is what shifted her focus.
So, the haphazard and out-of-nowhere introduction of Mels was either very bad writing – or there’s another thing hidden here. The whole ‘Oh, her? She’s like my BFF from childhood who is like vitally important to me and Rory and us being together, and stuff, and oh, why didn’t I mention her, well must’ve slipped my mind’-thing just didn’t ring true at all, so I’m keeping my faith in the writing and make the wild guess that there hadn’t been a Mels prior to her introduction. Time can be rewritten is kinda the whole message of this thing, so maybe it was, and now includes Amy’s childhood-friend Mels when earlier, it didn’t. The whole BFF-montage scene seemed like memories being created after a change in the past, see e.g. Butterfly Effect. Putting this into an episode playing on essentially the quintessential changing-the-past trope – killing Hitler – would only make sense.
It reminded me of all those Very Special Episodes of various sitcoms throughout the years that introduce close friends that you never heard of before and will never hear from again. My “favorite” was the Family Ties episode where Alex Keaton talks to a psychiatrist after the death of his closest friend, a friend you never heard about before and was never referenced again.
I’m not going to respond to the number of replies to my post(s) because I don’t want to start an argument/thread-shit/whatever, but I will repeat something said/hinted at earlier: The characters emotional responses make no sense given what we’re told about the relationships. I would think that most people would be completely gobsmacked, confused, and broken-hearted to find out that their best friend from 3rd grade on was both (a) a lie, and (b) their daughter*. When are Amy and Rory going to turn against the Doctor for completely fucking up their lives and their daughters life? River Song has been interacting with her parents for a couple of years now, and you would think that there would be something that indicates some sort of relationship between them, but as far as she acts, they’re just the latest companions.
*Speaking of which, we have been told that Amy’s imaginary “raggedy doctor” resulted in psychologist bills, years of therapy, etc. But now we have a character who, since grade school-on, who has not only believed Amy but has been rather vocal about it? A character described as their best friend who didn’t even bother to go to their wedding? You would think Amy, at one time or other, would say to the Doctor “Can we see my friend Mel? She’s the only one who supported and believed me all these years, and it would mean so much to her, and etc…”
