Does a Fetus have a soul?

It’s a serious question aimed at the people who believe in a nonmaterial, nonphysical consciousness that they call a “soul.”

If there is some nonphysical, nonmaterial part of me responsible for making me “me,” that is responsible for my decision making, then it must be interfacing with my physical body somehow, right? So why, when I am under general anesthesia, do I have no conscious memory for the period? Does anesthesia send your soul somewhere outside your body, and if so, how does it know when to come back? I’ll accept that this soul can’t collect visual input during the period, since my eyes are closed, but shouldn’t it be able to hear if it’s still “in there?”

Isn’t it more likely that, in fact, what makes me “me” is nothing more than my brain and all its components, and that when I’m placed under anesthesia, I don’t have any memories because I’m not there?

I agree with the others who suggested that we need to establish what a “soul” is and how it works before we decide who has them and who doesn’t.

—However, if physical characteristics can not account for free will, then it is entirely reasonable to say that some non-physical component is necessary – whatever that non-physical component may be.—

This is as pure an arguement from igorance as one could make. We have no idea a) if a “physical” explanation for “Free Will” could be made or b) what exactly we are even trying to explain (i.e. this supposed concept of free will)

In fact, it seems nonsensical to even speak about “physical” explanations before you’ve even described what “physical” is in contrast to. You can’t define things purely by negation (i.e., this thing is non-physical): you have to explain what they are. Personally, I think describing things anything as metaphysically “physical” is a confusing mistake to begin with. I just want to know about things

—Free will: The ability to freely make choices (as opposed to, say, those decisions being ordained by the laws of physics).—

This definition is cognitively empty. What does “freely” add to hte concept of "make choices, and, indeed, how does the “making” avoid nulifying the “freely”? As far as I can tell, any attempt to explain the concept nulifies it. Which is why it “explaining” it requires approaches like negation and arguements from ignorance.

Further, whatever you could possibly mean by this, how would you go about demonstrating that it actually happens? How do you tell true uses of “free will” (in the strong sense) from abscences of it?

To be clear: there are two senses of free will. The weak sense is simply the idea that choices come from inside a being: persent outside influences do not entirely decide persent decisions. Almost everyone agrees with this sense, and it likewise has no need of an “anti-physical” recourse. But the strong sense is something else entirely. It seems to mean that a being makes choices without it’s OWN NATURE deciding the choice. I.e., the “will” it is “free” from is it’s OWN WILL. This is the concept I think is pure, unintelligible nonsense.

—Moreover, we don’t HAVE to know how it works to believe that it exists. People knew about gravity, long before they knew how it worked (and to this day, we still don’t completely understand how it works!).—

Poor analougy: we DO need to at least know what it is we’re talking about before we can discuss something’s existence. How would we know what to look for otherwise?

Gravity is a phenomenon we can at least describe. Free will is not. Instead of describing a phenomena, it is describing a lack of phenomena: a complete separation of a being from it’s own acts. It’s essentially saying that a being’s nature does not determine it’s choices. This is not a phenomena, but a denial of a phenomena. Legitimately describing a phenomena woudl involve stating what DOES determine the choices made. (but doing so would, of course, negate the concept)

And how can we ever really be sure this is even what’s happening, when we only have an incomplete understanding of the nature of beings to begin with?

Again: what is going on when there is “free will” vs. when there is not? How can we tell the difference?

Even worse, this claim goes directly against what you are saying about the physical world! If you admit that you don’t know how free will “works,” then how can you possibly conclude that it cannot “work” in a “purely physical” (whatever the heck THAT is) world? It is YOU that seems to be demanding an incompatibility in how free will “works” and our present knowledge of reality (who ever said it was complete?), and yet, you don’t even know what it is or how it works.

Your problem is, indeed, not like the problem of gravity. We can at least see that an explanation of gravity would enrich our understanding of it. But any explanation given of “free will” would negate the concept! Where does the choice come from? Why one choice and not the other? Answer these questions and you demolish the concept itself.

—Nobody’s saying that the existence of a soul is a complete, testable explanation for free will.—

No, the problem is that it’s NO EXPLANATION AT ALL. It does absolutely nothing as far as “explaining” anything. It offers nothing in the way of an alternate avenue for the concept. In fact, it only compounds the problem by adding yet another entity that cannot itself even be described or explained. It’s like saying that the explanation for “groixplix” is a “flizpliz.”

—Rather, the point is that physicality can not adequately explain free will, so it is entirely reasonable to say that some non-physical attribute is necessary to explain it.—

No. I recognize no such concept of “physicality” until you can explain what the alternative IS. Further, you cannot even explain the “it”: so how would we even know what we’re looking for?

—Huh? Who said anythign about “blaming or condeming” being a violation of natural law?—

My point was your arguement boils down to: if we didn’t have free will, then it would be nonsensical to blame or condemn. So… very well, it is nonsensical. The fact that we engage in nonsensical behavior doesn’t provide us with any reason to think that we have free will. But actually, I don’t think all senses of blame are nonsensical.

—The point is that it is irrational to cast blame on something that had no choice in the matter.—

Only for a certain understanding of blame (intentional stance). It is still quite meaningful to, when determining what crushed the car, to put the blame on the tree, which was always to some degree likely to fall down. This leads us to be more wary of parking cars under trees. Saying that things are only acting according to their nature does not prevent one from identifying that nature as the contributor to some bad (to me) situation.

—Do you blame your car wheni t breaks down?—

Something about the car certainly led to it breaking down. If I don’t want the car to break down, isn’t the car the place I should look first for a solution to the immediate problem?

—Do you blame the vending machine when it swallows up your quarters?—

One vending machine swallows quarters. Another does not. When a certain vending machine swallows quarters, it is perfectly rational to notice that fact and either fix the machine, or use one that doesn’t swallow quarters. The machine can certainly be blamed for the problem. So can the person that built the machine. So can the person that so poorly educated that person on how to build vending machines. Causes of problems, and hence the blame for them, can link backwards.

Humans have an additional psychological component for making blame_itself_ a means to correcting the problem, not just identifying it: when I blame a person for their bad behavior, in addition to simply identifying it, there is the hope that I can actually change their nature via shame or guilt or another such avenue.
But in a certain sense (heavily simplified, but still analogus), this is really no different than changing the nature of the liable-to-break-down car or the nature of an unstable tree. Cars can be tuned up with tools: human beings can be changed by experience and emotional or moral appeals from other people.

Yes, I do. In fact, I was waiting for someone to bring that up, as I had addressed that point in threads past.

Quantum mechanics allow for a measure of randomness, but such randomness is STILL governed by the laws of physics. Moreover, that still wouldn’t solve the problem of free will. You would be like a computer whose output is created by a random number generator. The results may have a random component, but that’s still not the same as free will.

Once again, consider a tree falling on your car. Suppose that this falling was caused by a random quantum event. Would you feel justified in blaming the tree for the damage to your car? Not if you’re a sane, reasonable person. The event may have been random, but it was still beyond the tree’s control.

Or let’s say that your computer contained a program that might wipe out your files, based on the results of a quantum-based random number generator. Is the computer to be blamed for this horrific deed? Not at all. It is merely acting in accordance with the laws of physics, even if there’s an element of randomness to those laws.

How is that relevant? There’s no reason to believe that the soul goes anywhere. Besides, merely raising the question doesn’t constitute an argument against the existence of the soul.

If it doesn’t go anywhere, it’s reasonable to assume that it’s still “in” my body in some sense then, interfacing with it, correct? Then shouldn’t it continue to gather what sensory input is available, such as sounds, or smells? If not, then it must have detached from “interfacing,” as it were, and in that case I would ask how it knows when to “re-interface.”

And I would suggest that raising the question constitutes at least as good an argument against as stating dogmatically that nonphysical explanations for “free will” constitutes an argument for. If argument by negation is OK from one side, it’s OK from the other.

Personnally, I see no reason to assume we have this magical property called “free will” which would allow us not to be governed by the laws of physics. IMO, we’re merely a process. Not that it’s relevant in any way. Thinking that doesn’t prevent me from having desires, goals, motivations, to be happy or unhappy depending on the circumstances, etc…

Are you saying that you don’t believe in free will?

If there’s no free will, then you shouldn’t get upset when someone throws a punch at your mother. After all, that person has no free will, and was thus compelled to violence by the laws of physics. Ditto for the man who rapes your daughter, or the fellow who flies a passenger plane into the World Trade Center. None of them had any choice in the matter, having no free will to choose otherwise.

It gets worse. Your own decision to reject free will, and my own decision to believe in it, are merely the outcomes of physical processes. These were not decision in any meaningful sense, since we had no choice to believe otherwise. Even the logic (or illogic) that one uses to discern the presence/absence of free will would have merely been the outcome of those physical processes.
As for whether the soul leaves the body during unconsciousness or not… that’s truly irrelevant. One may speculate as to what happens to this soul during moments of unawareness, but that really has no bearing on whether this soul exists or not. In fact, since there’s no compelling reason why the soul should leave the body, that strikes me as an exercise in pointless speculation.

Similarly, all this talk about casting blame on trees and other objects with no free will – give me a break! The very act of casting blame assumes that the object has some choice in the matter. It is irrational to blame somebody or something for an action, if that person or object had no choice in the matter. It would be sheer lunacy – the act of a raving madman!

No. There is no reason why this conclusion must automatically follow. One could speculate about how the soul interacts with sensory faculties, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that the soul should behave in the manner that you describe. In fact, such restrictions arbitrarily assume certain properties of the soul, and as such, do not constitute meaningful objections to its existence.

Free will, as another poster said, doesn’t really explain much. All that is said is that we can select from among the choices that are available to us, and that we can think of, at the time the choice has to be made.

In your hypothetical, “someone” has an option to throw a punch or not. Why that “someone” chooses to throw the punch instead of not throw it isn’t accounted for by free will.

And has also been pointed out several times, even if the “someone” had no choice it doesn’t follow that I shouldn’t get upset.

so…

where do you stand on the subject of homosexual marriages? (as an example - any number of other social/political issues would also be relevant here)

Does the fact that one’s pain might be the result of natural processes make it less meaningful somehow? Why? Does the fact that I can’t live inside your brain mean that if I punch you in the face, you won’t be upset by it, whether I did so of my free will or not?

Of course it does! Good gravy . . . if you cannot explain what this soul is, what it does, how it does what it does, how it interacts with my physical body, what happens to it when my physical body is not working – and let’s get this straight, you and I both know that you cannot explain any of those things – then there is no reason to assume it exists at all. If it doesn’t appear to do anything, and nobody can explain anything that it does, or the mechanism by which it does what it does, then who cares whether it exists?

Your argument thus far is, “A soul is the thing that gives us free will. And free will exists, because if it didn’t, it wouldn’t. And since it does, then we have souls” What kind of argument is that, besides a circular one? Please, explain to me precisely how a soul gives me free will. Something stronger than, “Because it does.”

It appears to me that your argument is based in fear – fear that, if there is no soul, then there is no “why.” That’s a pretty poor argument. Maybe there isn’t any “why.” So what? That doesn’t negate the fact that, if you punch me, I feel pain, and will take steps to prevent being the recipient of that pain in the future. Whether it is the result of free will being exercised or the result of a culmination of physical processes is utterly beside the point. I do not enjoy experiencing pain. I take the word of others that they also do not enjoy experiencing pain. Therefore, we collectively agree to strive to remove from our environment those things that cause pain. Who cares why the pain was caused?

It also strikes me that you have asserted dogmatically several times in the thread, JThunder, that “free will” cannot be explained by physical, materialistic means, which seems to be grounded in nothing more than a) your own assertion, and b) an assumption that “free will” has not yet been explained by physical, materialist means.

So, at this point, I have to ask you to prove that “free will” cannot be explained by physical, materialist means. Please include a very precise definition of “free will,” and how it accounts for a given individual’s choices between multiple options.

No, it’s more than just an assertion. It’s a statement made in consonance with everything that we know about the physical universe.

It is possible that there is some unknown, undiscovered property that the universe has, such that mere matter actually exhibits free will? If so, then this flies in defiance of everything that we know about the physical universe, and it throws centuries of physics out of whack.

On a macroscopic scale, we know that matter obeys Newtonian laws (or Einstenian laws, to be more precise). On a quantum level, we know that a measure of randomness occurs. Neither explanation constitutes free will, since free will is free (i.e. has liberty) and is not mere randomness.

So there you have it. Our models of the physical universe specifically describe non-free-will behavior. In fact, the scientific method – and specifically, the repeatability clause – requires the assumption that the subject will not disrupt the results through free will. If one is to claim that mere matter can exhibit free will, then the burden of extraordinary proof rests on that person.

Therein lies the problem. Given what we know about the universe, the burden of proof rests on those who claim that matter can exhibit free will. The rest of us can note what science actually teaches, recognize that physicality is inadequate to explain free will, and thus accept belief in a non-physical component whose workings are not completely understood.

OK, so what is “free will?” How do I know, for example, that you have free will? And, conversely, how do you know that I have it?

And can you explain anything about how this “soul” works yet? I grow increasingly curious, since thus far, it doesn’t actually appear to do anything.

Also, what happens to this nonphysical component when the physical body stops working? Does it stop working along with the body?

pl -

(diety) forbid that I speak to matters commonly covered by religions… But - the concepts of “ego”, “soul”, “individuality”, “spirituality” (and, probably, 1000’s of other terms) are so common to so many different cultures, over so many 1000’s of years, that I find it impossible (or, if you prefer, irrational) to deny that there is something being common to these concepts.

I feel no need to know the methodology/mechanism of this “soul” to realize it exists.

As to details:

is it immortal - don’t think so

are we born with it - nope.

what is the physical mechanism by which it works? probably neural synapses, don’t really know, or care.

why would the synapses fire in such a way to produce this belief in a “soul”? WHY SHOULD I CARE? at some level, the 5-yr-old needs to stop responding to every bit of information with the queston “why?”

would general sedative knock out these synapes - you bet, that is the purpose for which they were invented.

go watch something be born, something die, a sunrise; see small children play and laugh - if, after doing so, you feel no sense of having a “soul”, well, try again

amen to that happy.

i feel like people are covering the obvious here.
free will is a concept made up by man, we can put whatever definition to it we want, but of course physical matter is governed by natures laws… if they weren’t, how would the universe exist?

there is a difference between organisms and a tree.
an organism, for arguments sake let’s say a human, has a brain, and this brain (although governed by physics) has a subjective free will. every brain usually sees several choices when faced with a problem.
but, on an objective level, a study of the neural network in the brain, was the conclusion the brain came up with the only possible one for that specific brain? i don’t know.

I agree, the term is used pretty imprecisely. I think of “soul” as a lot like “personality”–certainly a very complex thing, one that develops over time, but not an immortal thing. I haven’t found any evidence of any immortal soul in fetuses, adults, animals, guitars, or anything else. The “soul” that I do find evidence for isn’t likely to exist in a fetus, since it is a result of teachings, environment, exposure, and many other things. It also probably has some chemical component which may exist in utero, but in an undeveloped stage.

I also find it kind of amusing, JThunder, that you seem so shocked that some deny the existence of free will. Many well-known philosophers have done so in varying degrees, Hume being one of the most well-known. Here’s something Spinoza said on the subject, in his Ethics: “There is no free will in the human mind: it is moved to this or that volition by some cause, and this cause has been determined by some other cause, and that again by another, and so ad infinitum.”

Personally, I’m not convinced that our will is “free.” I’m not sure that it isn’t, but the problem is that whatever choice we make, it’s impossible to prove that we could have made a different one.

Would I be upset if another person, free will or not, punched my mother? Yes. I would also be upset if a tree fell on her. True, I wouldn’t take the tree to court over it, as I might the person. The person is at least conscious, and the tree is apparently not. But I suspect that if I could fully, clearly understand all the details of the assailant’s past, all the motivations, all the chains of causality, all the influences, all the chemical imbalances (clearly impossible), I might just see that the person who throws a punch at my mother may have just about as much choice in the matter as a tree that falls on her.

Still, I like the idea of people being held responsible for their actions. I don’t think that proves that we have free will, and I certainly don’t see what it has to do with whether fetuses have souls.

happyheathen, I understand what you are saying, but I don’t think you’re talking about the same thing JThunder is talking about. What you’re discussing seems to be consciousness and individuality in a very general sense; that is, there is something that makes me “me” and something that makes you “you,” but is the result of purely physical processes (“synapses firing”). I have no beef with that. And I agree that, prior to a certain age, it doesn’t really exist, or in any case has not completely manifested.

But that’s not what JThunder is talking about, AFAICT. He’s talking about something entirely separate, that exists independently of any physical process, “enters” (for lack of a better word) our physical bodies at some point coincident with or following conception, and imbues them with some trait called “free will.” That, I don’t buy.

Does a person have a soul?

Does your pet dog?

An ant?

A tree?

A computer?

Until someone can detect and prove the existance of ANY kind of soul, these questions are absurd. They fall in the class of a koan, “What’s the sound of one hand clapping?”

I think you are conflating two separate issues. “Getting upset” is not the same thing as “casting blame.” I can be upset that a tree fell and hit my car, but it would be irrational to blame the tree itself. The mere act of blaming someone or something assumes that said object should have made a different choice.

Once again, I think that’s an irrational demand, one which conflates two separate issues. One does not have to know how something functions in order to accept that it exists. Newton believed in gravity, for example, long before anyone understood that it existed. Newton simply accepted it as an attractive force between two objects, without claiming to know how it functioned. Similarly, Democritus accepted the existence of tiny objects called “atoms,” without claiming to know how these functioned either.

Congratulations. You have done an excellent job of misrepresenting my position. At no point did I say, “Free will exists, because if it didn’t, it wouldn’t.” In fact, I challenge you to show me where I said such a thing.

Rather, I accept that free will exists, and I’ve pointed out reasons why scientific explanations are inadequate to explain its existence. Hence, if we accept the existence of free will, the most rational explanation would be a non-physical one.

I already explained what free will is. It is, as I said earlier, the ability to freely make choices. If you want to be more explicit, it is the ability to make free and deliberate choices. (I emphasize “deliberate” for the sake of explicitness, even though all genuine “choices” must be deliberate.)

Physical determinacy would preclude the “freeness” of free will. Quantum randonmess violates the deliberateness condition. Any attempt to explain free will on purely physical grounds is thus devoid of scientific support.

How do we know that we have free will, you ask? Do you seriously suggest that we don’t? If so, then it is irrational to blame anyone for anything, for those people are incapable of modifying their behavior in any way whatsoever. A person with no free will is incapable of making any decision with any sort of volition.

No, but one has to have some notion that it functions at all. You have yet to show that this thing you’re referring to as a “soul” performs any function whatsoever – you’ve merely stated that it does. In Newton’s case, he was able to observe that some attractive force existed, and was able to extrapolate from there.
It isn’t as if he stated, out of the blue sky, “Objects attract each other!” with no observational evidence.

Retracted. Would it be more accurate to say that your argument rests on the assumption that free will exists?

How do you know we are able to make free and deliberate choices? Or, to narrow it down, how do you know that I am able to make free and deliberate choices?

There are certain mentally insane people who we do not, legally, hold responsible for certain of their actions because they are not capable of understanding the consequences of those actions. Do they not have these “souls” that confer this ability?

Yes, repeatedly!

That is not an answer to the question I asked, it’s merely a shifting of the burden of proof. The question, as posed, stands: How do you know that I have free will, that my choices are all free and deliberate? What’s more, how do you know that your choices are free and deliberate?

So what if it is irrational? Many things are irrational, and we do them anyway.

Let me pose a very simple question: Can you explain anything at all about the manner in which the thing you are calling a “soul” functions?