Where did you see it? Is it on a website or has to be downloaded from somewhere?
No. Keeping an open mind doesn’t mean keeping it so open that one’s brain falls out of it. There is evidence. There’s a most-likely explanation. There is no obvious reason to prefer any of the other explanations. Does it mean they can’t be revisited? No. Does it mean the most-likely explanation won’t be investigated further? No. There are ways of testing the most-likely explanation to test if it’s true. If it fails the tests, it gets rejected.
Except that the people on the tape claimed to be militant Islamists. There have now been further tests and a few posts above mine, Tigers2B1 notes that a voice print on the tape has been found to match the person that it claims to be. If this test had failed, there would be other tests. Now to claim that this wasn’t radical Islamists, a theory needs to explain why and how Zarqawi’s voice is on the tape along with everything else.
There is plenty of evidence at this point supporting the initial idea that this was radical Islamists. Additional evidence coming in also supports this idea. You saying something isn’t evidence doesn’t mean it isn’t evidence.
Oh, I see why you thought I was insulting you-- since you fling insults around in every post you must assume everybody does.
Murder isn’t excluded, it’s just not favored. If further study shows no trace of sleeping pills in his blood, a gunshot wound to the back of the head, and the note written in somebody else’s hand, suicide moves to the bottom of the list. It’s what I said about absent compelling evidence to the contrary.
True, but it is also an insult if it’s a fake. Perhaps worse in some ways-- If your brother was arrested for murder, you might say he shamed your family’s honor. If he was innocent but framed for murder, would you not find that the real criminal had insulted your family by doing so?
Wow.
Just, wow.
I believe the universe is understandable. I believe things make sense. I tend to take people at their word, unless it’s been shown to me that their word is useless. I think Nick Berg was killed by radical Islamists who hate Americans and who (as a group) have shown themselves willing and able to do that sort of thing.
I also believe Alde here really is a human being who claims to have a multi-ethnic background, multiple wives, suffer from dyslexia, and live somewhere on the other side of the Atlantic from me. I don’t believe Alde is really a 12-year-old Inuit girl with six arms who lives down the street from me or, alternately, a computer program.
I believe this, even though I only have a single source (the SDMB), because it really does make the most sense. But I’m trying to keep my mind open.
I’m not taking sides here, but as long as we’re talking logic, this is a fallacy of equivocation.
I just looked at a very poor quality file version of the video and there was plenty of blood. It pools around and under his chest.
(I know it’s said to be bad video to start with, but I think this was probably worse and the audio was unintelligible. Since others here and in other threads sound a bit more sure of what they saw and heard, I presume they may have seen something ‘better.’)
The actual existence of a real Zarqawi is problematic.
Certainly the letter attributed to him several months ago was a rank forgery
(“oh, habib…I am sooo depressed, I couldn’t even fuck my dromnedary last night thinking about how these american soldiers are kicking our tired mujahid asses…”)
That said, he is the favorite “usual suspect” to be rounded up.
disclaimer:haven’t seen video, and pretty happy with that status, especially with the four hacks and all. I at least thought these bozos could do it with style…)
There certainly would be nothing militating AGAINST an ambitious MI guy finding the body and head conveniently left bv the road and staging a video, but, nah, even with my beanie on I’m going with the simple story, even without seeing the actual evidence (why be troubled with details, I say…)
Sorry, can’t help you understand them, Alde. Me, I’m an atheist. These cults are as much a mystery to me as they are to you.
Also, if you actually think that such things only occur in the USA, and only as offshoots of Christianity, then I would have to say that you are seriously misinformed.
Anyway, enough of this hijack for now.
I’m at work right now and so can’t access the site.
Unless the mods say otherwise, I’ll be back in a few hours with a link.
Or you can look for it–I googled: Berg, decapitation and found myself at “samablog” or some such within a minute. Takes a while to download–about an hour for me, but you get to keep it for posterity.
Bitchin’…
Jesus H. Christ, aldebaran, just how young are you to be so paranoid, yet such an enormous sucker?* I’m guessing no more than twenty. You, I fear, are at the “he reads too many mystery novels” point that lies between skeptical and paranoid when it comes to this topic. Yes, an apparent suicide is sometimes a murder. Yes, there may have been cases (though I can’t think of any in real life and it’s a topic on which I am distressingly well versed) where a death that has ALL of the earmarks of a suicide turns out to be a murder. But no, that’s not how you place your bets. The “smart money” says that Berg was kidnapped and murdered and that the murder was filmed and released by people who do not like the US, but there is nothing for the smart people to win if it weren’t for the suckers throwing their money at dreams and possibilities. They can make a pretty good living depending on people like you to be foolish. Stay out of casinos.
I truly wish we could get some adult Muslims on this board.*
-
- Please note that these statements are not intended to reflect negatively on the several teenaged Dopers who are wise and mature well beyond their years. They know better than I how exceptional they are.
There’s an interesting discussion on this at DemocraticUnderground. I think there has to be, at least, reasonable doubt that all is as it seems. There are several things not quite right about the video. Not saying it’s not genuine just that there’s reasonable doubt. That thread also contains a link to the video (it opens in Windows Media player for me and doesn’t take an hour - just opens straight away. Although the quality might be better on the other link).
You don’t really clearly see any beheading. They kind of jump on him and his body falls to the side and then the camera starts jumping about. And then they hold up a head. All very unreal.
I watched it and (after I stopped feeling slightly sick) several things do appear odd - he is completely motionless throughout (already dead or just scared stiff?), the picture goes blurry occasionally (editing?), the time lapses, the method of killing is different to normal halal killing etc etc
Enough to raise reasonable doubt?
The al-ansar site on which the video was posted has now been closed down by it’s Malaysian host but someone did a search on the domain name and interestingly it can be tracked down to a London address:
The reason why radical islamists kill in this way is because they think that it is the most proper way of killing, by doing it halal style. Shouting God is great etc. Remember they think they are doing God’s work so they think the killing is not an evil act, it’s just a kill like any other. Like when they kill an animal, so they have to do it in the “normal” God-friendly way ie halal.
Atta’s message to the other 9/11 hijackers tells them that this is the proper way to kill the infidel:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/attaletter_1.html
Also they think shouting “God is great” strikes fear into the heart of the enemy. I’m sure it does strike fear into one’s heart, having a screaming madman come at you with a knife. Although I don’t think shouting “God is great” is likely to be any more scary than if they were shouting “I’m gonna kill you with this knife”.
If a shouting knifeman came at me I think that all my attention would be focused on eliminating the threat. I wouldn’t particularly be paying much attention to the detail of what he was shouting. Whether he’s shouting “Allahu Akbar” or whether he’s shouting “I’m Daffy Duck” - it would be all the same to me. My thought-process would be “uh-uh incoming shouting knifeman - urgent action required”.
I know you love the Habib joke, as it shows how much we stereotype all Muslims (or something), but, could you, you know, cite any of this?
If you presume your theory is true, that saves you the trouble of proving it, I guess. There’s nothing that actually supports what you said, that’s the problem here.
I love that word.
The whole story is bizarre. The US claims they didn’t hold him, it was the Iraqi’s.
The family swears the US did.
It seems the US consul in Iraq says the US was holding him.
http://www.news24houston.com/content/headlines/?ArID=28906&SecID=2
What the hell is going on?
Do the math. I didn’t want to speculate.
Okay, having seen a different, longer version of the same thing… 
The audio is definitely off by a few seconds, but it’s consistently so. I kind of think it rules out forgery because it would be a hopelessly incompetent one. Maybe someone else can explain why this would happen? (That and the time code change.)
Al-Zarqawi isn’t from Iraq, he’s Jordanian. I don’t know if he’s the speaker, but it’s not like the concept of foreign terrorists coming into Iraq is unusual, is it?
By the way, Reeder, please explain how the dispute over who detained him vindicates you?
This is why I objected above to the apparent (as described) inept use of a dull blade in the instant case…
I’m unsure to which of my remarks your cite request is directed.
If to the coda, I fear I have been obscure, since I am sure you are not being obtuse in construing my postition as leaning towards anything but facts as stated, at face value.
on the zarqawi identity, you would need to spend some time on the indy media sites, or maybe gnn. I’ve long since forgotten the provenance, and you know how to use google, I’m sure.
as to the forged nature of the letter purporting to implore assistance in fomenting a sectarian conflict between shia and sunni as the last resort of a flickering resistance, well, I refer you to the singular events surrounding the Great Peoples United Convoy for the Relief of the Fallujah Mujaheddin for an index to the level of the current sectarian conflict…
btw, the resistance appears to be flourishing as well, without much help from Al Z
Perhaps our government is lying to us…
And yet, even assuming that (arguendo), why the fuck wouldn;t they just cop in the first place. there seem to be no end of govt types who tried to get him out of town safely once he was back on the streets… So they don’t exactly have his blood on their hands…
Deplorable, to be sure.
My personal “homage” to Al Bundy…
“The actual existence of a real Zarqawi is problematic.” He seems real enough to me. Also “Certainly the letter attributed to him several months ago was a rank forgery.”
You made the claim that he doesn’t exist, or something. It’s on you to back it up; I’m not doing your web-searching for you.
I’m not sure I understand. Seems to me the situation in Iraq for the coalition is substantially worse than when he wrote that letter.
Cite that he’s not helping much?
If you’d like to see the video, go to FileMirrors and search for “iraq2vediow.zip” without the quotes. If anyone has a better version of the tape, please post it.