Does anti-Americanism really exist?

[gitfiddle]

I don’t think at all that it’s a display of anti-Americanism when my friends said they hadn’t wanted to talk to me because I was American.

Take for example Rogers01 black/white hypothetical. Well, that’s something I know first hand, again, being from the South where racism is dying away VERY slowly, I know very well that white people who are anti-black do NOT talk to the blacks. That’s the way it is.

If it needs clarification, my friends were more surprised that they got along so well with me after the image that they had in their heads of what “Americans” are like. That’s not to say that they were anti-American, just presumptuous.

As far as Europeans and how well they know Americans, sure, I feel that way sometimes, but I see the same amount of it from the other side. Moreover, I don’t think I even know what is “American.” I don’t think I even understand America.

Yojimbo, I do agree with you. On the one hand, we Americans need to learn to take a joke and stop being the hurt puppies (no, that is not a universal statement, so don’t jump on me for saying it), but on the other hand we just don’t have that sort of “in your face” (can’t think of a word for it) sort of joking nature here (which usually leads to people saying things behind others’ backs, rather than to their face).

I think when someone talks to someone from another country, no matter whose country the two are in, their should be an unspoken agreement that both are going to try to meet in the middle. I think it’s childish for one to expect the other to completely adapt to his country’s mannerisms and habits. I’ve always used that perspective and it’s worked fine for me.

xtisme, I think that even the Americans who are worried about patriotism/nationalism, is that human nature is human nature, whether it’s German, Iranian, or American. Extreme love for one’s country, no matter how badass it is, is going to be perceived as, and eventually turn into, an f-you to the rest of the world, which is a complete disregard of what is in the best interest of all for what is in the interests of few.

I’ve never completely understood patiotism. I don’t think it’s a bad thing, but then again a mother’s love isn’t a bad thing, but if a mother had the change to save thousands of people or her children, she’s going to save her children, and that’s not necessarily good either (I think that’s a C.S. Lewis example).

Get what I’m throwing?

[msmith537]

@BrainGlutton

That’s probably it.

OTOH, there are plenty of retards in other countries.

True enough. Soccer hooligans comes to mind off the top of my head. But we seem to export the worst aspects of our culture overseas more than we import theirs.

But to a certain extent some Americans need to lighten up and realize the rest of the world is not going to kowtow to us by virtue of being from the good ole U S of A. There is a distinctly American attitude that no one should ever criticize us about anything.

Then again, being a nation of foreigners, we know how much foreigner suck back in the countries where we came from

[XT]

@gitfiddle

xtisme, I think that even the Americans who are worried about patriotism/nationalism, is that human nature is human nature, whether it’s German, Iranian, or American. Extreme love for one’s country, no matter how badass it is, is going to be perceived as, and eventually turn into, an f-you to the rest of the world, which is a complete disregard of what is in the best interest of all for what is in the interests of few.

I don’t think that a love and respect for one’s country is ‘an f-you to the rest of the world’…its simply a love and respect for one’s country. The American version of patriotism seems pretty harmless to me…though admittedly I’m an American patriot through and through.

As for a reguard for whats best for The World™ over ones country…well, I don’t see this as necessarily evil. What makes The World™ right and one’s country wrong? Besides, its been my experience when folks start throwing this idea around that The World™ REALLY is code for ‘what Europe thinks is best’.

@gitfiddle

I’ve never completely understood patiotism. I don’t think it’s a bad thing, but then again a mother’s love isn’t a bad thing, but if a mother had the change to save thousands of people or her children, she’s going to save her children, and that’s not necessarily good either (I think that’s a C.S. Lewis example).

Well, there you go…you are bashing something you admit to not completely understanding. Again, I don’t really see any large scale harm coming from US style patriotism…mostly because the really high level bursts of it tend to be short lived. I DO see why the Euro’s aren’t comfortable with patriotism…or religion for that matter. I also see why they aren’t comfortable with guns and myriad other things. Their own past has been rather blood spattered by such things after all and perhaps in their hands such things naturally tend to cause death and destruction. Or, perhaps its our Euro brothers and sisters themselves who cause the death and destruction, and things like ‘patriotism’ or ‘nationalism’ or even ‘religion’ are just the excuse to go into a frenzy of killing. I’m not sure. Certainly here in the US patriotism (and religion), while not completely clean of hand, has had a much more mild history.

We aren’t Europeans, much as we resemble them. We have a different history, and a different outlook on life and politics. I think its the many similarities that confuse folks on both side of the pond when something vastly different between us crops up.

-XT

[gum]

Something else that really exist: A lot of people who love Americans.

[XT]

@gum

Something else that really exist: A lot of people who love Americans.

Actually this is a good point. For all that there is a lot of anti-American sentiment out there in the wide world, there is a surprising amount of pro-American sentiment as well. Even today after we have supposedly pissed off the entire World™, there are a lot of folks out there who like the US as a nation. And there are probably more folks who are just neutral one way or the other. Its the vocal ones who get all the attention.

I’m half convinced in some of my own anacdotal cases that folks who were coming across as anti-American were simply saying what they felt was expected of them (a lot of it was in informal bull sessions at 3 am after copious drinking was involved…man, those Europeans can drink like fish! ).

-XT

[gum]

Originally posted by xtisme

Its the vocal ones who get all the attention

That’s it, exactly.
It is time we listen to the not so loud.

This has nothing to do with politics. People just like Americans for what they are: Goodnatured, intelligent, full of fun and - an old-fashioned word, I know - kind.

[What on earth do you mean, we can drink like a fish? ]

hic

[Anne_Neville]

@msmith537

The basic European attitude towards Americans is that we are ignorant, uncouth simpletons and they can’t figure out how the hell we are so successfull and dominant in just about everything.

Remember, tourists, almost by definition, are clueless about the country they’re in, and often jet-lagged. I know I always look and feel pretty dumb on my first day on vacation in Europe, and I’ve probably said some monumentally stupid things as a result. I’m not at my best on three hours of sleep (I’m lucky if I get that on a plane) or at a time that is bright daylight where I’m visiting but is 3am at home. And tourists get cranky, too, from the jet lag and everything else. As Dave Barry once said, “I bet there were times when even a great traveler like Marco Polo just wanted to find a cheeseburger and a Holiday Inn”.

[smiling_bandit]

Well, that’s something I know first hand, again, being from the South where racism is dying away VERY slowly, I know very well that white people who are anti-black do NOT talk to the blacks. That’s the way it is.

Then you don’t know much about racism, either.

There’s blatant racism in the world. But there’s an awful lot of soft racism in the world, too. It’s not obvious, or at least not aggressive. Just nasty and vicious is a quiet way. Ever seen Driving Miss Daisy? perfect example. Just your average everyday racist. Not violent, not in-your-face. But maybe even more harmful in the long run.

But to a certain extent some Americans need to lighten up and realize the rest of the world is not going to kowtow to us by virtue of being from the good ole U S of A. There is a distinctly American attitude that no one should ever criticize us about anything.

I don’t care if anyone criticisizes us. I do care if louts like Yojimbo insult us. I don’t care what kind of “playing” they think it is. It’s childish and stupid, and Americans, regardless of what anyone thinks, are a very serious people. No matter where you are, do not ever start spouting “shit” to someone unless you and he * know damn well it’s play*. Because otherwise it’s not play. You’ve just insulted someone’s mother, and he may kicked your Irish (or whatever) butt for it. Otherwise you’re asking for trouble.

Most Americans don’t know that the former Commonwealth have a weird habit of drunkenly insult one another. Don’t expect Americans to know that. They think you’re some stupid thug trying to start something. There’s no sign in the bar/pub/beer-joint saying “Crazy trash talking Irish are just playin’.”

[yojimbo]

I’m a lout? Cool.

Don’t get all hung up on slagging(thrash talking) that’s just a tiny part of it.

[BrainGlutton]

@mswas

I believe largely that Canadian culture and American culture are quite similar, and wish that our border was LESS controlled, not MORE.

Dude, those people eat baked beans with maple syrup!

I mean, are they even human?!

[gitfiddle]

@smiling bandit

Then you don’t know much about racism, either.

There’s blatant racism in the world. But there’s an awful lot of soft racism in the world, too. It’s not obvious, or at least not aggressive. Just nasty and vicious is a quiet way. Ever seen Driving Miss Daisy? perfect example. Just your average everyday racist. Not violent, not in-your-face. But maybe even more harmful in the long run.

I have seen that film. I’ve also seen American History X. You have a point, but keep in mind I’m not claiming that by being anti-American, or racist, that one can’t change. That said, I take the “anti” in anti-American to be completely against (as it is often portrayed in our media) everything that is American, including every person therein. My friends spoke to me, spent time with me without hesitation, just apprehension. They presupposed that we wouldn’t mesh well, not that their hate for me and my country would disgust them, just that they thought we were different.

@smiling bandit

It’s childish and stupid, and Americans, regardless of what anyone thinks, are a very serious people.

I find it interesting that many Americans get mad at people from other countries for making generalizations about them, just to turn around and make generalizations about the other 295,734,133 Americans. Especially in a country that prides itself on its diversity.

I don’t think I’m a serious person. I try not to be, at least. I rarely get worked up over anything, especially what people say to me. That doesn’t mean I don’t work hard, or that I’m indifferent. I’m serious about certain things, but I’m not a serious person.

Perhaps, I’m taking “serious” to mean something else. In which case, I’d probably find that all people in general around the world are quite serious people.

I had a girlfriend in high school who was very frank with people, which caused many other girls to call her a bitch. When I would ask her, “Well, what’d you do after she called you a bitch?”

“I cussed her out! What the hell do you think I did?” She would exclaim.

I just always thought that if someone thought something about you that you didn’t agree with, you would try to prove them wrong, not solidify their assumptions.

I’m not talking about kowtowing to foreigners, if that’s what anyone wants to call it, but if you disagree with what someone says, why don’t you tell them, discuss it, and maybe you can both come out with a better outlook in the end.

Is that too idealistic? I’m new at this.

A note on patriotism as well: I love where I come from, in every sense. Even the rotten stench of pluff mud lifts my spirits after being away for a while. That, however, has nothing to do with politics, history (other than my own life), etc. On the same account, though, I love Angers, France for the same reason. I had some the best times of my life there. Every time I go back, I have almost the same sense of comfort I get from being in Charleston.

That’s why I don’t understand Patriotism. The lines that we draw around countries are necessary, but they’re also imaginary. I can love where I’m from for what it is to me, but I can’t expect others to accept it the same. I can’t tell someone from, I don’t know, Sedona, Arizona, that they got nothing on Charleston because they didn’t have marshes to play in as a kid, can I?

When people ask me about things that America does or if I’m proud to be American, I tell them that. I tell them too that that has nothing to do with politics. I can voice my opinion of politics, and that has nothing to do with where I learned to ride my bike.

[gitfiddle]

@Tibbycat

I believe that when it exists, Anti-Americanism is typically nothing more than a thinly veiled variation of penis envy. I would be dumbstruck to learn of many countries not harboring a fair degree of resentment toward any country with more power, particularly if that country meddles in global affairs. If I may equate America to a parent and other countries to it’s children: a minor degree of rebelliousness is healthy, even productive; too much and they need to be spanked.

Not to advocate either of these views, both of which I think exist but both of which I find a somewhat ridiculous, with all due respect, one could look from outside of the US and just as easily see a group of gun-toting men with big, “powerful” cars who incessantly draw attention to their big ships and their big missiles. One then says, “They’re compensating for something.”

[HazelNutCoffee]

@Tibbycat

This may rankle the ire of non-Americans and the Left, but I believe that when it exists, Anti-Americanism is typically nothing more than a thinly veiled variation of penis envy. I would be dumbstruck to learn of many countries not harboring a fair degree of resentment toward any country with more power, particularly if that country meddles in global affairs. If I may equate America to a parent and other countries to it’s children: a minor degree of rebelliousness is healthy, even productive; too much and they need to be spanked.

I’ve been living in Korea for the past ten years, and anti-Americanism isn’t hard to find here. It comes and goes in waves - sometimes it’s smoldering; sometimes in full flame. I am ignorant when it comes to politics, international or otherwise, but I have to say I doubt that the anti-American sentiment here in Korea is due to any kind of envy. The incidents that usually fan the embers to white heat are instances concerning the US military stationed in Korea. Like the time when a US soldier killed a Korea prostitute by beating her, then shoving two beer bottles into her vagina and an umbrella up her anus. (Link to Google results). Or when two young girls were killed when they were run over by a military truck. (again, Google results). I don’t pretend to know what the case is in other countries, but I would thank you not to make sweeping generalizations about things you are not well-informed about.

As for your parent-child analogy in regard to US versus other countries… I really don’t know what to say. By what right would the US view itself in a parent role in relation to any other independent country? The US is one of the youngest countries in the world; just because it is wealthier than other countries certainly doesn’t make it wiser.

[Tibby]

@gitfiddle

Not to advocate either of these views, both of which I think exist but both of which I find a somewhat ridiculous, with all due respect, one could look from outside of the US and just as easily see a group of gun-toting men with big, “powerful” cars who incessantly draw attention to their big ships and their big missiles. One then says, “They’re compensating for something.”

I drive a VW Beetle* and my ship is a dingy, so I’m an American who is secure in his masculinity.

With few exceptions, the empire builders of days gone by - Britain, France, Rome…etc, did not shy away from wielding their power and influence upon their sphere of the globe, and they were hated for it as much as America is today. However, I don’t believe that America deserves as much criticism as the others: we may persuade (strongly at times) other countries to align themselves with our version of democracy, but we don’t attempt to fully assimilate them into us. We are, of course, looking after our own interests first, but I believe that the trickle down effect for the rest of the world is, for the most part, advantageous to all. Our day in the sun will also pass, and I believe that we will be lucky to have the next superpower be as righteous and benevolent as America is today.

*Actually, I drive a big-ass gas-guzzler, but that wouldn’t have sounded as good.

[gitfiddle]

Adding to what HazelNutCoffee said, one of my best friends is from South Korea, and she on several occasions has expressed concerns about what America will do about North Korea (since most likely the troops will use SK as a stepping stone). To be honest, I don’t know much about the relationship between SK and NK, so I can’t add much more than just throwing that out there with HazelNutCoffee’s post. I know that South Koreans are worried that any military action against NK is going to, unavoidably, involve them. Many Koreans seem (this is inference) to want the debates be among Koreans, not Americans and North Koreans.

[grey_ideas]

@Tibbycat

We are, of course, looking after our own interests first, but I believe that the trickle down effect for the rest of the world is, for the most part, advantageous to all. Our day in the sun will also pass, and I believe that we will be lucky to have the next superpower be as righteous and benevolent as America is today.

Interestingly enough, I wonder how many of the previous superpowers/empires thought exactly the same thing about what they were doing at the time?

Just as a thought for your own perspective, perhaps you should consider what you think about past superpowers/empires and apply it to the US now.

grey_ideas

[Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party]

Irish and British people tend to insult people more openly have more in your face political conversations with strangers

Really?

and swear and slag(insult) nationalities freely.

Yep, like those damned pakis, shithead wogs and freaky arabs. Being a racist is a European tradition.

[UnwrittenNocturne]

What I am seeing in this thread is that a remarkable number of the American responses seem rather thin-skinned.

[yojimbo]

@Dominic Mulligan

Really?

IME, yes.

Also IME Amerians seem to take things more personaly when their country is criticised. In some quarters there seems to be a rush to claim anti-Americanism when it just isn’t there. I have never said it doesn’t exist. It does.

Yep, like those damned pakis, shithead wogs and freaky arabs. Being a racist is a European tradition.

Please.

[smiling_bandit]

by Yojimbo
I’m a lout? Cool.

Don’t get all hung up on slagging(thrash talking) that’s just a tiny part of it.

No, it’s not my intention to insult anyone. But from the perspective of somebody just of the plane, you’re acting like a lout, acting like a child, and that’s likely to spark major issues. That’s the point: we don’t know the local culture. If we did, it’d be OK, but we’re not familiar with it, and insulting us, even if you think it’s friendly isn’t going to be perceived that way.