“Baptizm”??? :smack:
Romans 3:23 states that “ALL have sinned and fall short…” That is a fundamental
Christian doctrine.
I may be reading to much into your Post, but if anyone has plans to commit sins and then have a** plan** on making a declaration to believe in What and Who Jesus is and asks for forgiveness, well I wouldn’t what to be in those sandles.
Yes I truly believe that many have lived outside the Church and were saved on their death bed. But many didn’t get that death bed opportunity and passed on in a fraction of a second not having had the opportunity to accept Jesus into their heart.
Then there is this, Luke 16 is an account of what happens after this earthly body expires and our Spiritual Body goes to destiny.
Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol pot and others are frequently brought up in Bible Study sessions and It Is Difficult to feel comfortable thinking any Despot might be saved from Hell. We shall not condemn.
No worries, I often make typos when my rheumatizm acts up. And thanks for the authoritative reference on Perfect Contrition. That seems to confirm that OP Hitler would be OK under Catholic doctrine.
My pastor always emphasized that what is in the heart is what matters. Empty words spoken just before a person dies probably doesn’t count. It all depends on the persons sincerity and desire to change.
Thats a decision God has to make. He knows whats in a person’s heart and how sincere they are.
(post #13):
Yes I am speaking of relatively recent times, in keeping with OP. As far as relevant RCC doctrine goes it might be possible to go back as far as the Counter-Reformation.
Title edited to better indicated subject.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
I think you’re quite wrong, based on what I was taught. I went to Catholic school in the 1950s, and we were told that we could not assume that even Hitler had been condemned to Hell. Last minute repentance and redemption was always possible.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia (pub. 1907-12):
So it seems that it is no excuse if you run out of time at the end. Tailor-made to deal with Hitler, with the blood of innocent millions on his hands.
(post #27)
This seems a bit at odds with the citation in my last post, but you ought to know best if you received a Catholic education. I am acquainted with only one observant RC family; maybe I’ll ask them what they think of OP.
It’s not at odds, because your cite is about the Sacrament of Penance. Sins can be absolved outside the sacrament itself. Fromhere:
This corresponds to what I was taught by the good nuns in parochial school.
So according to the RCC The Heavenly Gates appear to be beckon Hitler, after all.
Substandard gate-keeping procedure if you ask me, but I have to admit my attitude toward religion generally consists of an urge to find something wrong with it; maybe I should therefore take the gift horse and ride.
The Catholic Church sold indulgences in the Middle Ages. But indulgences didn’t, and don’t forgive sins. They forgive the temporal punishment for forgiven sins. The idea is that sins have consequences, and those consequences have to be paid for, either in this life or in the next. This idea leads to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory…that, after you die, you go to a place where you’re punished for all the sins you’ve committed that you haven’t yet made recompense for. The idea is that the punishment cleanses you with the sins, and so, when it’s done, you can enter Heaven.
But, it’s also possible to do some of this purification here on earth. One of the ways that you can do that (beyond the more obvious ways of fixing the stuff your sin caused), is through the idea of indulgences. The theology and logic behind indulgences is complicated, but basically, the idea is, since the Catholic Church is made up of a lot of people, both living and dead, who are pretty holy and have done a lot of good things, and since it’s the Catholic Church’s job to forgive sins and all, the Catholic Church has what’s called “the treasury of the saints.”, and can decide that doing certain things can remit temporal punishments. These things are called “indulgences”, and they can be things like saying certain prayers, giving up certain luxuries, doing acts of charity, or whatever. Doing this stuff will cancel out punishment, either for yourself or another person, even a dead person in purgatory. During the late Middle Ages, this idea got abused, though. Charity was almost always considered something that would get an indulgence…give to the poor, build a hospital, feed the hungry, build a church, and there was an indulgence right there. The people who would go around collecting for charities were called “pardoners”, agents of the charity that was collecting money who would explain the indulgence from the donation. The problem is, a lot of those pardoners were corrupt, and would compete to try to outraise each other, a lot of times overselling…making all sorts of promises that went beyond what they were authorized to say. This was the selling of indulgences that Luther condemned.
I dunno, but it would be pretty cold on God’s part if Hitler got into heaven, but the millions of Jews he killed didn’t.
TonySinclair I’d assume that most Christian sects believe that a genuinely repentant Hitler would be forgiven and would go on to heaven. he might have a long stay in purgatory though beforehand.
The idea that any earthly sins (including Hitler’s) are unforgivable even if genuinely repented for, seems hard to square with the Gospels or with St Paul’s letter. St John states that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ covers ‘the sins of the whole world.’
Even Iscariot, who was held for almost two milennia as the textbook example of an unsalvable sinner, who took his own life and certainly did not confess to another of the Annointed before dying, is allowed that trapdoor. The trapdoor certainly was not invented for Hitler.
Hell, Iscariot is understood to have repented, something we cannot say for Adolf.
If your brand of Christianity embraces Universal Reconciliation he didn’t even have to repent.
I can see it now.
[ekedolphin dies; goes to heaven; sees Hitler]
Me: “Huh. You know that on my worst days, I questioned my belief in God and wondered if Heaven really existed. And if it did exist, whether Jesus would really wanna stink up the afterlife by letting me in. But I see their standards are much, MUCH lower than I thought.”
(Alternate dialogue: “Wait-- THIS is heaven!!!”)
There is a concept that good works on earth brings additional rewards in heaven. What that means is not explained fully in the Bible. Every believer in Christ goes to heaven. But someone that spent a lifetime doing good works will have a different experience than a bedside sinner that converts in his last minutes of life.
The meaning of this scripture is very much open to interpretation.
Right. So Hitler’s repentance is irrelevant to a Calvinist. He might be on his way to heaven, but if so, he was anyway. All that guilt and shame and remorse and turning himself over to god didn’t do anything.
Doesn’t it say somewhere in the New Testament that the only unforgivable sin is the sin against the Holy Ghost? (Whatever that is.) Presumably then all other sins are forgivable and a truly penitent Hitler, after a suitable time spent purging his other sins in Purgatory, would at last be accepted into Heaven.