This is very well said and very reasonable. I feel that we have to stop demonizing each other and look for common ground and understanding. The reasons people voted for Trump are very wide. But one thing I know is that during the campaign he made people feel like he cared about them, many of whom voted for Obama.
I also strongly still believe that enough people are still smart enough to see they have been sold a pig in a poke from this guy, and that maybe, MAYBE, enough people can be united by their dislike of Trump and stop all the infighting and name-calling, we can right this ship once again.
Thank you for your words; I’m sorry if I spoke too harshly.
OTOH, an overwhelming majority of GOPsters in Congress are enabling this guy. Murkowski and Collins were only the GOP Senators to vote against DeVos; Collins alone voted against Pruitt. They all hope to pass a huge tax cut for the rich (claims that the cut emphasizes middle class is total lie), increasing the deficit to ensure no hope for funding Medicare, let alone Obamacare. Et cetera, et cetera; it is too disturbing to list their evils.
I congratulate you on being an anti-Trump moderate. But at this point, only complete denunciation of almost all Republicans in Congress is acceptable!
It isn’t that they are “Republicans” which is the issue.
The issue is that they literally support/accept things which true religious conservatives would not is what is worrying. It shows they have no ethical or ideological core.
Donald Trump is a pro-choice agnostic… if not atheist… who was married to not one but two Communists.
He was assisted into office by Russia, at the behest of another Communist, this one an ex-KGB Colonel.
They literally do not give a shit about 4 dead service members in Africa, despite their giving a shit about 4 dead service members in Africa 5 years ago.
They accept, without complaint, the open support of Nazis and white supremecists.
Morality and judgement mean nothing to them in their decisions who to run the government. Punch a reporter? Great! State that you’re willing to hurt people? Better! Be an admitted sexual assaulter? Well, as a man with a wife and daughters… I’M GONNA MAKE THAT MAN PRESIDENT!
It is this combined lack of ideology and morality which makes today’s Republican voter the most dangerous and unpredictable force on the planet: They literally believe in nothing, and what they do believe in, they are unable to translate that into action, ethics, or decision-making. And this is not hyperbole, as we saw Republican voters literally give an immoral, mentally degenerating, ignorantly racist, internet troll who was openly supported by our enemies… well, they gave that man 7,000 nuclear weapons and the United States of America. And we saw the Republican leadership enable it.
I appreciate that! And I do come from a family that is Southern to the bone and can, at times be country as a turnip green, but we have a long history of being pretty fluid across party lines and being very open with each other about who we vote for. Until Trump. Now we are skirting around each other like a bunch of crabs and I so perturbed by it! Who are these people?
But yes, I gotta say I have to agree with you that Trump has got to be pushed out, and I am frustrated with Congressional Republicans. I don’t understand why they are so afraid of their own constituency and they can’t see that the folks back home won’t be nearly as mad at them as they think they will be if they will just fix what is not working with the ACA. Who cares if you ran on “repeal and replace” if you have nothing to replace it with? If they just get it working better, people would love it. I don’t get the stubbornness. People are sick of partisanship, and most people actually WANT to see the two sides working together! I don’t get it, truly.
I agree. I don’t understand exactly how the Republican Party got hi-jacked, but indeed it did. I used to think these types of ideas were just outliers, but not any more.
However, I don’t think Democrats need to just sit back and let all the people like me just roll into their camp. Democrats got problems, too, although their house isn’t the one burning down at the moment. Just don’t go and get all pontificating and puffed up. Everybody’s got work to do, and as for myself, I am happy to do it. I gotta stay positive, otherwise I will just lose my marbles.
But with the caveat that there are lots of Republicans and conservative-leaning folks out there who don’t like the current administration. So if I discovered that a coworker was a Republican but anti-Trump, I would see that person in a totally different light than someone who loves him some Trump. Furthermore, I put social conservatives in a different box than fiscal conservatives. I still disagree with the latter, but at least they aren’t trying to make us go back to the 1950s.
All true enough; but I also know that I haven’t seen one repudiation of Trump from any of my Republican FB friends, nor have I heard any of my R friends/family/co-workers criticize any of his actions since he’s been elected. It’s either approval or silence.
I made myself give Trump voters the benefit of the doubt. I hoped and hoped that eventually they’d come around after the disaster we knew was coming. I hoped that I would see/hear/read some of them say “y’know…whoops.”
But it didn’t happen.
So yeah. Surrounded an disappointed by these people.
I agree that people for whom the concept of “America” has worked are more likely to be conservative, while those for whom it hasn’t work are more likely to be liberal. In our culture historically white christian hetero men were at the pinnacle, and the more of those 4 traits you hit the more likely you are to be a conservative. Men are more conservative than women, whites more than non-whites, straights more than gays, christians more than other faiths, etc.
But I don’t think what you are saying is exclusive with what I was saying. Maybe you end up more conservative because the concept of ‘America’ works for you, and as a result you adopt the conservative value system with its higher emphasis on ingroup, purity and respect for authority.
As far as Kaepernick I think the big issue is that a black person is doing something they consider disrespectful to police and military to protest something they don’t care about (police brutality against blacks). I think Kaepernick knew the underlying sociological dynamics of the situation, and knew which buttons to push to create controversy. So in the minds of conservatives yes it is an entitled millionaire disrespecting the flag, but they have no problem with Ted Nugent or Kid Rock wearing flag based clothing for example. Its not about the flag, it is about ingroups and outgroups (blacks vs whites), and respect for authority (police and military).
As far as the mass shooting incident, that ties into what I was saying earlier where conservatives have brains that notice and respond to threats more strongly. They feel more anxiety, and need more order and protection to feel safe. Hence the obsession with guns, the higher adulation for the police and military, the bigger fears of an open border or terrorism, etc.
However again, it does have moral undertones. They react far more strongly when an outgroup member (black nationalist, Islamist) commits a mass killing than when a ingroup member like a conservative white man does it.
Your argument about tax increases is arguably also an ingroup/outgroup issue too, because when I hear conservatives talk they either openly or dog whistle talk about how their taxes are supporting *those *people. Trump supporters are far more likely to support government aid when it goes to whites than blacks. there was an article in the Washington Post recently about how white conservatives affected by hurricanes wanted aid, but didn’t think Puerto Rico deserved aid.
My point is even the issues you list are at root motivated by purity, authority, ingroup/outgroup dynamics, a higher threat response, etc like I listed in my post. Kaepernick, welfare, mass shootings
I know accusing people of racism usually shuts down a conversation, but due to evolution we have inbuilt desires to identify with our group. Everyone has bigoted tendencies, it is just a matter of degree and a matter of what you are bigoted about (race, ethnicity, religion, nationality, belief, etc).
Yes! This is what I am wanting too! People, I love you, and just admit you were wrong, and I will still love you, and let’s move forward.
The silence is sickening. It almost makes me want to pick a fight to get them to admit they were wrong. Almost. I value my sanity. That’s also why I stay the hell off Facebook.
I agree with a lot of this. Having a media of their own for 20 years has created a alternate reality. Conservatives and the rest of us don’t even live in the same world anymore. It would be funny if it weren’t so dangerous.
If Fox News existed in the 70s, Nixon would have probably served out his term and Watergate would have probably been just a “partisan witch hunt” and Nixon would be looked upon as a Conservative hero.
I think your characterization of both Conservatives and Liberals are both wrong. To use your analogy I would say Liberals believe everyone in the pool should have received that same swimming lessons and safety equipment and then everyone is starting on a fair footing and no one drowns. The better swimmers still win but the worst swimmers don’t die. Conservatives believe the people who can afford their own swimming lessons and safety equipment deserve them and everyone else better just keep up as best they can. Maybe one of the people who starts without them actually was a better swimmer but we’ll never know because the people who can afford the advantages will always win.
To answer the question of the OP I don’t believe every Republican or even Conservative is a bad person but I do believe people who are cruel or thoughtless, if they care about politics at all, will be Conservatives.
While this thread would be (and will be) more appropriate in the Pit, it was not there when you posted this, and you’ve been noted before for making insulting comments in an inappropriate form. This time, you’re receiving a warning. Pay attention to where you are and respond appropriately, or risk losing your posting privileges.
Upon further review of the thread, despite the OP’s “rant” comment, I think the discussion in this thread is more appropriate in IMHO for the time being. I’m going to leave it here for now.
Yeah that stuff bothers me too. The moral core the religious right pretends to have isn’t there. They have some values, but they aren’t the values they pretend to have.
I would assume their only true values are obtaining and keeping power for themselves, but that doesn’t explain why they picked Trump over a different member of the GOP establishment in the primary.
FWIW, religious fundamentalism is to a large degree a trait of right wing authoritarianism.
I think that is the only true moral value of the religious right, the traits of right wing authoritarianism.
The question is how do we deal with these people and limit the damage they can do to society.
Okay, I get it, republicans were never going to vote for Hillary, they hated her with a passion and they’ve been voting for the republican candidate their whole lives. Fine. Hold your nose and pull the lever.
But how in god’s name did you ever let this guy win the primary? You’re supposedly a well meaning fiscal conservative and you have guys like Jeb, Rubio, Kasich, and Ryan at your disposal. Unfortunately being a member of the republican party also means you inherited the uneducated racist hillbilly voters wether you wanted them or not. And instead of running with “your” candidate you let them run the show and force Trump on you. Unforgivable.
And instead of standing up to them and letting them know the lunatics don’t run the asylum you let them have their way and put Trump in office. You just fucked yourself with your pride. So have fun trying to control the crazed monkey you’re responsible for. It’s been exasperating watching the republicans try to do it week after week.
No, I think my point was missed. My point was that I think it’s impolite that the OP assumed (my read on it) that because I’m a Republican, or there are other Republicans that we must all be inconsiderate, uncaring, moronic asses. I, personally, thought it was a stretch and I do not assume that if someone’s a Democrat they are inconsiderate, uncaring, moronic asses. I wouldn’t ask the question because I don’t think someone’s politics has to do with whether or not in the grand scheme of things they are a decent person. Some people are decent people, some people are simply asses. I know Republicans, Democrats, and Libertarians and I can’t place any one group of them in a box and mark it jerk. I just don’t think the affiliation matters. Like I said if someone’s a good person, political preference doesn’t play a role imo, same thing if someone’s a jerk. That was my opinion on how I interpreted the OP.
I see the reasonableness of that, for sure, and I can get on board with your argument. I guess where I always get hung up, and maybe this is the part of me that will always be Conservative, is that I just can’t agree that all white people are the ones equally advantaged. Yes, many are, but where I come from there are quite a few poor whites with an awful lot of barriers, some of their own making, and some not. I can’t help but feel like, crap, these people need some help! And truthfully, aren’t they the ones who blindly voted for Trump because he (falsely) made them think he cared about them? Continuing to punish them and call them names isn’t going to do anything but make this problem worse.
I do feel we need to help minorities of all kinds, and we do need special allowances for certain groups, but if you are poor and live in the country and come from a family that has never been to college, and that family has no idea how college even works, and they maybe even pooh-pooh the idea that education is even necessary, well, those kids need to be targeted by school counselors and given information about how these processes work, and yes, assured that there is a path forward for you, too. I say this because there is a lot of assumption around here in rural Georgia that white kids don’t need any assistance with college applications, they just “know”. Well no, they don’t. They are quite stupid about it, and because they don’t understand it, they avoid it and say they don’t need it. I know white kids who truly think that scholarships are only for black people. That if you are white you can’t get one. Somebody at school needs to tell them this isn’t true and show them!!
One thing I can say I see as a major class and social difference is that by and large, black families know and understand the value of education and see that as their ticket out of poverty. Poor white families have grown to value education less and less, and don’t see it as a way out of the trailer park. This is maddening to me, and I don’t get why they no longer think sending your kid off to college is something to aspire to anymore.
Oh, I know all the hoo-hah about colleges being liberal indoctrination camps, etc…but I think that is just a way of avoiding what you don’t understand. Poor white families tell their kids they will be laughed at by all the rich folks at the fancy school, and when somebody does break ranks go off and get themselves all “edu-macated” they get accused by family of trying to “rise above your raisin’”, which used to be a GOOD thing, but now is a BAD thing? It’s the white equivalent of being called an Oreo.
I dunno. Do we let the Dumb Crackers consume themselves? I used to think, eh, ignore their ignorant asses and they will go away. Now I think some measures need to be taken just to recognize maybe a white kid in the classroom may have barriers, too. When you say, oh we are only going to have this program available to minority kids, it doesn’t take other factors into account.
I am not saying don’t help minorities. I am just saying maybe what qualifies as a minority isn’t always so cut and dried.
Here in the South in public schools in rural counties, there are often only a handful of white kids in each class. Most of whom are poor. Most of the teachers are black. Who is the disadvantaged minority here? Who isn’t going to maybe be getting the attention they need and will stay a dumbass? Maybe it warrants a closer look, is all I am saying.
I want good things for everybody. I am raising this argument not because I am, oh here comes the dreaded R-word, “racist”, but because I do believe people who need the most help and attention should get it. And people who are too ignorant to see they have gone out of the frying pan and into the fire need some help, ya’ll! IMHO.
The problem a lot of us have is we can’t rectify how moral, informed responsible people could also be Trump supporters.
I’ve voted in many elections on the city, state and federal level. None bothered me the way Trump’s election did. I didn’t feel contempt when the republican won a county board seat, or a state senate seat, or the governorship, or things like that. I usually vote democrat but I’ll also vote green, independent, libertarian, etc. depending on the race.
But Trump has many things deeply wrong with him that disqualify him not only from holding high office, but from being acceptable in polite company. I wouldn’t have dinner with someone like Donald Trump, let alone hand control of the military over to him. The fact that so many republicans either can’t see that, or choose not to see it, or try to hand wave it away makes it hard to rectify informed, moral responsible people with also being Trump supporters.
Having said that, there is impropriety on the part of democrats. But I feel as democrats we are more willing to admit this and take responsibility for it. When William J Jefferson was arrested for corruption I didn’t make excuses for it. I don’t make excuses for the liberal hollywood types who covered up Weinstein’s crimes. And I think nobody should be above the rule of law, just so long as the investigations are legitimate and non-partisan.
I am not a Trump lover, but I wasn’t (am not) a Hillary or Bernie lover either. I get what you are saying, I also think if someone wanted to they could make the same case about people of other parties, too. It’s politics, there’s always some dirt or policy disagreement or contempt to go around. Getting back to my thought before though, I don’t think you can take everyone of one party, place them in a box and mark it jerk. I think people do just that sometimes though and I don’t think it’s a fair assessment of a person’s true persona. There are tons of reasons, too many to get into here, that people vote the way they do.
