[QUOTE=kanicbird]
My replies were in response to others posts, I’m not the one jumping. Currently there is a thread in GQ about the possible solution the grand unified theory using multidimentional physics (IIRC 4 spacial dimensions and 2 time dimensions). One of the links was how are 3 + time dimensions are really a shadow of reality fits very nicely into God’s design of the spiritual world that people in this world can’t see, but we as created beings were designed to. It (both science and biblically) expresses that there is so much more then we can perceive currently. What you think of as your natural 3d+t world is really a subset of in this case 4d+2t, the extra 1d+1t you consider unnatural just because you can’t see it.
[/QUOTE]
Mm-hmm. And how does this relate to whether it’s natural for us to grovel at God’s feet again? You see, that’s what those “others posts” that you were responding to were about. All the posts are right here in the thread for people to read, see.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
No the answer is free will, of man and spiritual forces who are not following God’s plan.
[/QUOTE]
Earthquakes have free will? 
Or does the devil make them, and God just watches?
I never argue human free will anymore. The concept of free will inside of a certain perimeter seems beyond most believers. There are lots of things many of us can’t do now, and I don’t see why making mass murder beyond the scope of our abilities limits our freedom. However, earthquakes are much cleaner.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
My replies were in response to others posts, I’m not the one jumping. Currently there is a thread in GQ about the possible solution the grand unified theory using multidimentional physics (IIRC 4 spacial dimensions and 2 time dimensions). One of the links was how are 3 + time dimensions are really a shadow of reality fits very nicely into God’s design of the spiritual world that people in this world can’t see, but we as created beings were designed to. It (both science and biblically) expresses that there is so much more then we can perceive currently. What you think of as your natural 3d+t world is really a subset of in this case 4d+2t, the extra 1d+1t you consider unnatural just because you can’t see it.
[/QUOTE]
Which findings from physics would not support your notion of God’s design? If what is in the Bible points to modern physics, how come no one ever figured this out before the theories were derived from other means? Once we found evidence of the Big Bang, religionists were quick to point to this as supporting the Bible, but no one ever came up with a Big Bang theory from the Bible. And the support is a bit iffy, anyhow - for instance while energy was first, light wasn’t., since the universe was initially opaque.
Earthquakes do happen for whatever reason. Wouldn’t it be nice if God warned His people before it happened so they can leave that area before it happens, perhaps build a house a certain way so it wouldn’t fall down when disaster strikes. Prophecy is a gift of the Holy Spirit and the above is possible - we just chose to ignore Him.
After the fall of man the world changed dramatically, now it doesn’t say that there will be earthquakes in that chapter, but the concept of death, pain and suffering was introduced into the world at that time. After final judgement the earth and heavens will pass away, and God will create a new earth and new heaven, one I suspect won’t have ‘newearthquakes’.
[QUOTE=Voyager]
Which findings from physics would not support your notion of God’s design?
[/QUOTE]
My basic point was don’t assume our natural world is just what we can perceive, even man’s science is proving that there is so much more that we can’t perceive that is absolutely real and has real effects. I don’t care to argue if man’s science can prove that the first thing was God, God’s Word, followed by light with our current level of scientific understanding.
As to why God didn’t reveal multidimensional physics, the answer is pretty obvious, how are you going to explain that to a bunch of 1st century fishermen while also saving people from eternal destruction. Our knowledge increase has been fortold in Prophecy in Daniel 12:4
- NIV
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
God is all powerful, but that does not mean He uses that power for everything. He created free will for man and I believe for angels/demons. Using His power directly in everything would go against our free will, so He delegates the use of His power and also the responsibility to us. God’s will is still being done and it allows us free will. God is able to correct any misuse of His power, and has already planned it out ‘before the creation of the world’.
Allowing for a less then all powerful God would mean that He would be incapable of allowing free will in achieving the greatest glory to God.
[/QUOTE]
And you don’t see this as an all-too convenient explanation (with no substance, mind you) to get people to believe something exists where there is nothing? You’re kidding me, right? Sounds like a classic case of the Emperor’s New Clothes to me.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
Earthquakes do happen for whatever reason. Wouldn’t it be nice if God warned His people before it happened so they can leave that area before it happens, perhaps build a house a certain way so it wouldn’t fall down when disaster strikes. Prophecy is a gift of the Holy Spirit and the above is possible - we just chose to ignore Him.
After the fall of man the world changed dramatically, now it doesn’t say that there will be earthquakes in that chapter, but the concept of death, pain and suffering was introduced into the world at that time. After final judgement the earth and heavens will pass away, and God will create a new earth and new heaven, one I suspect won’t have ‘newearthquakes’.
[/QUOTE]
Got it. Little girl drowns horribly, and it isn’t God’s fault - it is the fault of two mythical people in a story. Therefore, God loves us.
Couldn’t God punish her for the sins of A&E by giving her a rash or something?
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
My basic point was don’t assume our natural world is just what we can perceive, even man’s science is proving that there is so much more that we can’t perceive that is absolutely real and has real effects. I don’t care to argue if man’s science can prove that the first thing was God, God’s Word, followed by light with our current level of scientific understanding.
[/quote]
Ever since the understanding of gravity science has realized there are forces we can’t directly perceive.
Not quite. Our knowledge increase has been from looking at the world with eyes unburdened by religious preconceptions, not by looking at the scroll - which is the Torah, of course.
It’s not hard to write a true account of the origin of the universe using the same sort of language as in Genesis. I’m not asking for equations. Hinduism at least puts the origin of the universe far in the past, unlike Genesis. And if the writers of the Bible actually cared about people being saved (a nonsense concept to those who actually wrote it) they’d encourage this by writing the truth, so that as we found out more about the world we’d marvel at how well it matched the Bible. In the early 19th century the religious supported science because many of them were sure that science would prove the Bible to be true. When it didn’t - and especially when Darwin cut the legs out from under our specialness - it caused quite a backlash.
[QUOTE=kanicbird]
No the answer is free will, of man and spiritual forces who are not following God’s plan.
Not unless you seek Him.
[/QUOTE]
Why would god feel it necessary to create people with free will? Why not create robots? Once you’ve got a “perfect” god creating people and having expectations of those people, you’ve created an imperfect god, for there is no reason for a perfect being to create anything at all. He could just hang around being the Big Vague Tone In The Universe. The minute you put him in the creating business, you’ve knocked him down to something far less than perfect. He’s bored or an egomaniac or not very clever. Because an all-powerful being could most certainly do better than this. And it would be painless for the rest of us, too. And please don’t say he’s doing any of this for us, loving guy that he is…because there was no “us” to be in need of guidance or threats or eternity until he created us. Which makes him very imperfect, indeed.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Why would god feel it necessary to create people with free will? Why not create robots? Once you’ve got a “perfect” god creating people and having expectations of those people, you’ve created an imperfect god, for there is no reason for a perfect being to create anything at all. He could just hang around being the Big Vague Tone In The Universe. The minute you put him in the creating business, you’ve knocked him down to something far less than perfect. He’s bored or an egomaniac or not very clever. Because an all-powerful being could most certainly do better than this. And it would be painless for the rest of us, too. And please don’t say he’s doing any of this for us, loving guy that he is…because there was no “us” to be in need of guidance or threats or eternity until he created us. Which makes him very imperfect, indeed.
[/QUOTE]
I’ve been wondering a lot lately about this particular issue.
These days I’m somewhere between Christian Agnostic, Quaker, and Deist, if that makes any sense. I’m finding it hard to know what to believe and even harder to figure things out anymore.
If I were to relay my doubts and questions and troubling issues to the folks at the Baptist church that I used to attend long ago, they’d tell me that the devil is working on me.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Do you acknowledge that this is your own private definition of “god”, and not a standard dictionary definition?
[/QUOTE]
Yes,personally I believe that theoretically god can exist but not in the forms that world religions currently say (s)he does.
[QUOTE=Revtim]
No. There have been plenty of gods worshiped throughout history that were not omniscient. Why does your definition of god include omniscience? And why should we accept your definition over any other?
[/QUOTE]
Because I have been personally appointed by god to spread the word oh unbeliever.
[QUOTE=Lust4Life]
Yes,personally I believe that theoretically god can exist but not in the forms that world religions currently say (s)he does.
[/QUOTE]
The Greeks had such a God, as written in scriptures:
[QUOTE=Acts 17:]
23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
[/QUOTE]
- NIV
A God they somehow knew must exist but couldn’t find until Jesus opened up the way to God to all people.
[QUOTE=Lust4Life]
Because I have been personally appointed by god to spread the word oh unbeliever.
[/QUOTE]
Weird, I was personally appointed by the Flying Spaghetti Monster to spread that word that you, Lust4Life, are incorrect. Sorry dude. You might be flattered that It mentioned you by name though, that’s pretty cool.
[QUOTE=Revtim]
Weird, I was personally appointed by the Flying Spaghetti Monster to spread that word that you, Lust4Life, are incorrect. Sorry dude. You might be flattered that It mentioned you by name though, that’s pretty cool.
[/QUOTE]
Ooh, did you get a cool pirate hat?
[QUOTE=Revtim]
Weird, I was personally appointed by the Flying Spaghetti Monster to spread that word that you, Lust4Life, are incorrect. Sorry dude. You might be flattered that It mentioned you by name though, that’s pretty cool.
[/QUOTE]
Damn the FSM and all his adherents,SPLITTERS!
My apologies if this was addressed and I missed it, but is there support in the Bible for god being perfect and/or omnipotent? How about the Koran or Torah?
I’m an atheist, but I always thought Mencken was onto something when he said:
“It is impossible to imagine the universe run by a wise, just and omnipotent God, but it is quite easy to imagine it run by a board of gods. If such a board actually exists it operates precisely like the board of a corporation that is losing money.”
Declaring one’s God perfect and omnipotent would seem to be required to get people to follow your religion: if you allow that your God isn’t perfect and omnipotent, people will listen to a guy who says his God is.