[QUOTE=scr4]
What kind of treatments are there that reduce leaf size Bonsai trees are kept small by pruning the branches and roots and by using small containers, but I wouldn’t think these processes change the size of individual leaves.
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That aspect interests me the most. I can understand the roots and trunk of the tree being stunted but for the leaves and seed bodies (pine cones) to be dwarf as well (per the OP description) that’s kind of surprising.
Amazing! the leaves are tiny. i did see a pine tree once-it did indeed have miniature cones; they were no more than 1/2’ long.
[QUOTE=Dervorin]
Interesting. I hadn’t read that. Would you happen to have a link?
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I just looked in the last 2 issues and didn’t see it there, it might have been on-line, I’ll see if I can find it. The study was done with yellow rats which, apparently, always produce yellow rats, but after feeding them certain food that they knew would attach to the DNA, they produced other colors of rats.
[QUOTE=RaftPeople]
While it’s not a modification to the DNA exactly, Scientific American had a recent article about food that you eat causing certain molecules to attach to the DNA and turning genes on or off which ultimately changed the offspring. Some of these get passed on for multiple generations.
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yes, sorry Dervorin, Lamark is still stirring. Its called epigenetics. An example is methylation of genes. Some environmental stress (famine , feast) will cause irreversible methylation of a gene, turning it off (or on?). The genes might code for body size, fat retention etc. That gets passed to the kiddies. The genetic idea may be that the kids will get a head start assuming that the environmental stress is still around. There are other mechanisms.
see wiki for a very technical discussion Epigenetics - Wikipedia
here is a brief BBC page BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon
[QUOTE=RaftPeople]
While it’s not a modification to the DNA exactly, Scientific American had a recent article about food that you eat causing certain molecules to attach to the DNA and turning genes on or off which ultimately changed the offspring. Some of these get passed on for multiple generations.
[/QUOTE]
yes, sorry Dervorin, Lamark is still stirring. Its called epigenetics. An example is methylation of genes. Some environmental stress (famine , feast) will cause irreversible methylation of a gene, turning it off (or on?). The genes might code for body size, fat retention etc. That gets passed to the kiddies. The genetic idea may be that the kids will get a head start assuming that the environmental stress is still around. There are other mechanisms.
see wiki for a very technical discussion Epigenetics - Wikipedia
here is a brief BBC page BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon
sorry double post
I have a couple bonsai trees (though technically they’re only a couple years old and not fully “bonsaied”) and have parents that have grown them for decades.
let me point out that its through selective pruning, and root trimming not lack of nutrients that make a tree bonsai. Young trees like mine still have bigger leaves, but within a couple springs they will be the typical bonsai leaf size.
[QUOTE=Dervorin]
The idea that changes in external form change genetic material died out quite a while ago, with Lamarck.
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I seem to recall that in Origin Darwin wrote that the children of laborers have bigger hands than the children of the gentry.
[QUOTE=scm1001]
yes, sorry Dervorin, Lamark is still stirring. Its called epigenetics. An example is methylation of genes. Some environmental stress (famine , feast) will cause irreversible methylation of a gene, turning it off (or on?). The genes might code for body size, fat retention etc. That gets passed to the kiddies. The genetic idea may be that the kids will get a head start assuming that the environmental stress is still around. There are other mechanisms.
see wiki for a very technical discussion Epigenetics - Wikipedia
here is a brief BBC page BBC - Science & Nature - Horizon
[/QUOTE]
When will I learn to research before I post? My apologies, I was just going by my (admittedly not enormous) knowledge of evolutionary biology that I picked up from my textbooks.
[QUOTE=scr4]
What kind of treatments are there that reduce leaf size Bonsai trees are kept small by pruning the branches and roots and by using small containers, but I wouldn’t think these processes change the size of individual leaves.
[/QUOTE]
If the leaves of deciduous trees are removed, the tree will produce a second flush of smaller leaves. Limiting the overalll growth resources available to the tree can stunt the development of various structures, including leaves.
Cultivars which naturally produce smaller leaves are popular bonsai specimens anyway, but variations in leaf size on a single tree can be observed in the wild - and the environmental conditions that caused the smaller leaves can be duplicated by the bonsai grower. I should add that I’m not by any means an expert on the subject, but I have read a book or two about it.
To answer ralph124c’s other question - if a bonsai tree is planted in normal unrestricted conditions, it may develop into a larger tree as it continues to mature, but the existing woody growth will remain as it is - for example, if the trunk has been wired into a twisted shape, it won’t straighten out even if the wires are removed - it might grow into a large tree with an oddly-twisted base, or it may be that this deformity means it cannot develop beyond a certain size without mechanically failing, in which case it might be destroyed by adverse weather, or something at some point.