Diogenes_the_Cynic:
You seem to think the word “reincarnation” actually means anything in pali. It doesn’t. You are conflating that meaningless word with transmigration of souls. Transmigration is not synonomous with “reincarnation,” which is just one way to translate the Pali words referring to samasara and rebirth.
Of course, this doesn’t even matter because none of thsoe beliefs are required to be a Buddhist . especially not in Zen.
One more time. It is not a credal religion. The 4 Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path do not contain any metaphysical/supernatural assmptions.
And your post is your cite again.
You are not required to believe in a soul to be a Buddhist.
Bricker:
The Four Noble Truths :
Those are the fundamental precepts of Theravada Buddhism, and I don’t see how we can separate the claim that the practice leads to cessation of dukka through ending rebirth from the rest of the mix.
I grant that an individual may say, “I think following these practices leads me to peace in this life, and nothing more,” but that’s an a la carte approach that could be applied to claim that ANY religion does not require belief in the supernatural.
Yeah, that’s pretty well my opinion.
The point of Theravada Buddhism is to get off the cycle by following the Eightfold Path. The existence of the cycle presupposes a supernatural background.
The techniques or steps of the Path may be good in-and-of themselves, and followed by those without any belief in the supernatural, but the ultmate goal of liberation from the cycle does presuppose a supernatural background.
What you posted is not what the Eightfold Path actually says. This is only that author’s paraphrase/interpretation. That part about “seccasaion of dukka” is not part of the formula. You don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about.
Frylock:
The part at the end that you quoted–the part about rebirth–is not part of a foundational Buddhist formulation of doctrine, rather, it is the author’s own interpretation of the intention of the eightfold path. Reading the next couple of paragraphs from the web page you linked to, you see that the actual foundational specification of the eightfold path contains no necessary reference to any supernatural phenomena.
Yes, and you can follow the Ten Commandments and believe in the wisdom of the Beatitudes without accepting God’s existence or Christ’s divinity, too.
But the fact remains that the Buddha taught that the way to end dukkha is to end tanha , and that by doing so you will end samsara .
You could choose to follow those steps without believing in samsara . But you can’t claim this samsara is not as critical to the total package as Jesus’ divinity is to Christianity.
Malthus:
Yeah, that’s pretty well my opinion.
The point of Theravada Buddhism is to get off the cycle by following the Eightfold Path. The existence of the cycle presupposes a supernatural background.
There is no presumption of a cycle in the formula. That is a misrepresentation.
Yes, it is. I’m right and you’re wrong.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
By the way, there can be a completely naturalistic interpretation of the Buddhist concept of rebirth. Rebirth isn’t supposed to be the continued existence of a single consciousness, but rather, it’s supposed to be the dissolution of one consciousness constituting part of the causal stream leading to the aggregation of another consciousness.
Well… this actually happens. My own consciousness is, in part, constituted by things that happened in the consciousness of people that came before me. My ideas and the way I understand the world are shaped, in part, by not only the people who raised me but also the experiences of people in the culture I belong to at large.
My parents didn’t have to die in order for me to “rebear” some of their consciousness of course, but AFAIK buddhist doctrines about rebirth don’t require that one dies before dissolute portions of ones consciousness can contribute to the aggregation of others. Indeed, in buddhist doctrine, there is no self–hence it should be no surprise if the dissolution of consciousness is a constant process and not just something that happens at death–even if its most, so to speak, “spectacular” dissolution may happen there at the end…
You’re making yourself look like an idiot. You TRULY don’t don’t know what you’re talking about.
Number of posts made by Diogenes so far: five.
Number of cites that are not his posts, but refer to some other authority: zero.
Bricker:
Yes, and you can follow the Ten Commandments and believe in the wisdom of the Beatitudes without accepting God’s existence or Christ’s divinity, too.
But the fact remains that the Buddha taught that the way to end dukkha is to end tanha , and that by doing so you will end samsara .
You could choose to follow those steps without believing in samsara . But you can’t claim this samsara is not as critical to the total package as Jesus’ divinity is to Christianity.
I’m not schooled in the foundational texts of Buddhism. You’ve given us a website written by a contemporary author, but can you do me the favor of citing “chapter and verse” where in a foundational text (i.e. one universally accepted by Therevada buddhist sects–since Therevada seems to be your target here) the Buddha is portrayed as teaching tha that the way to end dukkha is to end tanha, thereby ending samsara?
Frylock:
The part at the end that you quoted–the part about rebirth–is not part of a foundational Buddhist formulation of doctrine, rather, it is the author’s own interpretation of the intention of the eightfold path. Reading the next couple of paragraphs from the web page you linked to, you see that the actual foundational specification of the eightfold path contains no necessary reference to any supernatural phenomena.
The point of following the Eightfold Path is to, eventually, get off the cycle of Samsara.
Saṃsāra (in Sanskrit (संसार) and Pali) in Buddhism is the beginningless cycle of repeated birth, mundane existence and dying again. Samsara is considered to be suffering (Skt. duḥkha; P. dukkha), or generally unsatisfactory and painful. It is perpetuated by desire and ignorance (Skt. avidyā; P. avijjā), and the resulting karma and sensuousness.
Rebirths occur in six realms of existence, namely three good realms (heavenly, demi-god, human) and three evil realms (animal, ghosts, hell).[note 1] Saṃ...
The existence of that cycle seems to qualify as a supernatural belief to me, and it’s pretty basic to Theravada Buddhism.
Cite to original Pali script:
And yet I have repeatedly offered cites to my points, meaning at the very least that others out there equally endorse my idiotic claims.
You, on the other hand, have relied on your authority as an SDMB “Expert.” A title which you conferred on yourself.
Frylock:
I’m not schooled in the foundational texts of Buddhism. You’ve given us a website written by a contemporary author, but can you do me the favor of citing “chapter and verse” where in a foundational text (i.e. one universally accepted by Therevada buddhist sects–since Therevada seems to be your target here) the Buddha is portrayed as teaching tha that the way to end dukkha is to end tanha, thereby ending samsara?
Yes. Cite.
taṇhā: (lit. ‘thirst’):is the chief root of suffering, and of the ever-continuing cycle of rebirths. "What, o monks, is the origin of suffering? It is that craving which gives rise to ever-fresh rebirth and, bound up with pleasure and lust, now here, now there, finds ever fresh delight. It is the sensual craving (kāma-taṇhā), the craving for existence (bhava-taṇhā), the craving for non-existence (vibhava-taṇhā)‘’ (D. 22). T. is the 8th link in the formula of the dependent origination (paṭiccasamuppāda, q.v.). Cf. sacca.
Why don’t you ask Diogenes for some cites?
The actual words of the Buddha from the actual sutta :
"In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of aging & death, direct knowledge of the origination of aging & death, direct knowledge of the cessation of aging & death, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of aging & death. I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth… becoming… clinging… craving… feeling… contact… the six sense media… name-&-form… consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path.
“Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings.”
The Buddha taught the Eightfold Path as a cessation to suffering . He did not say you have to believe in samasara . That’s bullshit.
No it isn’t. The point of the Path is to end suffering.
Heh, from two posts above yours:
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: “From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks: Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — or the water in the four great oceans?”
“As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the tears we have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.”
"Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me.
"This is the greater: the tears you have shed while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — not the water in the four great oceans.
"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.
"Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a father… the death of a brother… the death of a sister… the death of a son… the death of a daughter… loss with regard to relatives… loss with regard to wealth… loss with regard to disease. The tears you have shed over loss with regard to disease while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time — crying & weeping from being joined with what is displeasing, being separated from what is pleasing — are greater than the water in the four great oceans.
“Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released.”
Same difference. In Theravada Buddhism, one ends suffering by escaping the cycle (and only by escaping the cycle) - and one does that by following the Path.
It is not necessary to believe in samsara. Bottom line. The Buddha never made that part of the doctrine. I just quoted the actual text of the Sutra. This debate is over.
Wow. A link.
And even in your link, he doesn’t limit himself to the cessation of suffering:
Then the thought occurred to me, ‘Aging & death don’t exist when what doesn’t exist? From the cessation of what comes the cessation of aging & death?’ From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Aging & death don’t exist when birth doesn’t exist. From the cessation of birth comes the cessation of aging & death.
But wait – there’s more :
“Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/ sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth , then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.”
From the cessation of birth.
What exactly does the Buddha mean? Was he advising Kassapa the clothless ascetic to turn back time and not be born?
Or was he advising him to not be reborn?
What did he mean, there, Diogenes ?