Would school bussing programs count? My middle school had student bussed in from all over the city, so you could easily claim that the school was now “diverse”.
Blacks, “Mexicans” (as they called themselves), and skinheads all formed gangs (sometimes offshoots of real gangs) and intimidated pretty much everyone, gang member or not, through violence as often as possible. I asked a former friend why he had joined the skinheads, and he told me it was for protection from the other racially based gangs. Since I didn’t join a gang, I was harrassed by pretty much everyone, until I grew a foot taller between 7th and 8th grade.
Needless to say, middle school really, really sucked.
Middle school is inherently divisive. In monoracial schools, cliques form along the lines of class, fashion, hobbies, musical tastes, etc. And don’t tell me skinheads only exist in diverse schools. I was educated in very diverse schools and there were no gangs, skinheads or otherwise.
I suppose we could count bussing as a “diversity” program. Bussing tended to be a (flawed) solution in search of a problem. The schools were segregated and schools in poor (usually black) neighborhoods generally got the cast-off materials from the other schools. In addition, many districts were segregated by race and often bussing was used to consolidate black kids from several neighbrhoods into a few poor “black” schools. Brown v Topeka Board of Education was supposed to halt that, but 20 years after that decision many districts were still being sued to force compliance with orders they had ignored.
Then somone got the bright idea to mix up all the kids from all the neighborhoods. Unfortunately, the proposal was pursued at the local level with each organization setting different goals and pleading different cases before judges holding widely varying views among school boards with quite disparate issues and legal regulations.
One view held that all the children should be mixed to prevent the school boards from favoring white schools over black schools.
One view held that all the kids should be mixed so that the kids would rub elbows early and grow up not thinking in terms of “us and them.”
Some cases were brought to mix urban kids with suburban kids (since white flight had already begun making the mixing of kids in any given city an exercise in futility). Most (not all) of these cases were thrown out because (depending on the laws of the state) the suburban schools were separate legal entities for whom the citizens of the cities had no standing for lawsuits.
In places where busing was implemented, it was often begun with the high school kids (who already had many xenophobic attitudes) and the fights that broke out on that level turned people desperately against implementing it at lower grades. (While not a fan of busing, I figured that the only way it would truly have worked would have to begun one year in kindergarten and have that first mixed class work through the system.)
(There were a few success stories out of the various busing plans, but they tended to occur in smaller districts and never held out serious hope that other plans might succeed.)
Ultimately, (IMO) the destruction of the neighborhood school system did more to hurt the kids’ chances at education than whatever (different) goals the various lawsuits tried to achieve.
So it could be argued that bussing was an example of a failed diversity program. On the other hand, there were so many different bussing “plans” (to use the word in its loosest sense) that it is difficult to say that the effort at diversity actually failed, since few people actually attempted that as a genuine goal.
The first workshop I attended was free and was advertised through an eccumenical youth leadership program. It was 3 hours long. I found it enlightening, discovered I had some predjuidices of my own and continued my education. I have done weekend seminars and day long workshops. We all make judgements upon meeting people. These workshops are a way of recognizing that and trying to deal with those judgements more fairly.
My time is vey limited as I am a single mom of a 4 year with a chronic and terminal disease. It may be days before I check this again but I sure do enjoy all the insight. Thanks for the feedback. I’d just like to say, whoever said that these workshops would be wasted on teenagers is gravely mistaken. I use many of the exercises in my teaching because it is valuable and the kids have told me about walls that were broken down and new friendships that were made. I do not believe it should be mandatory in the workplace. Apparently, corporate America is overflowing with cynical, angry people who don’t have time to deal with “human relations”. You can’t force someone to sensitivity. There has to be at least a degree of interest.
I’m with Esprix on this. When has silence and lack of communication ever helped an already tense situation?
And some people who are very sensitive to their fellow human beings are resentful of the implication that they have to be stuck in a room while the Kumbayah Cheerleaders train their bigoted ways right out of their heads.
Sorry, it just bothers me a little when something sounds like a suggestion that unless I’ve undergone specific training in diversity I’m not sensitive to other human beings. That’s why I resent being made to go to the mandatory seminars, and why I sit there with a cynical little scowl thinking ‘I’m not working on my important project right now because my employer is covering his ass just in case the company gets sued. It doesn’t matter what kind of person I am, I’m here to prevent his legal liability.’
I have a medium to large chip on shoulder about being made to do things at work that don’t relate to my job and don’t benefit me at all.
I have a negative attitude toward mandatory sensitivity and diversity training, because I think it’s an insult to me as a person and it takes up valuable time that I could spend actually working with my coworkers.
I could go to diversity training 24/7 and it wouldn’t make a bit of difference because I am already quite a sensitive and open minded person when it comes to diversity.
It actually is quite a waste of everyone’s time and money to try to convince me to be sensitive when I already am. Of course, there are those who believe that unless I get a certificate from Diversity Training U, I must be a bigot.
So even you admit that there were “one or two” people who didn’t like you, even though you “hated delivering” the training. Frankly, I think you’ve just made my case: Most like it, and appreciate it.
There’s your problem. You’re an unmotivated teacher in a poorly designed program. I’ll sling your comment back: Careful with those generalities. A poorly designed math course teaches kids to hate math, and a poorly designed diversity program leads to the kind of dittohead badmouthing we’ve seen here.
The comments in this thread make me proud of the programs I’ve been associated with, and convice me we’re not doing enough to combat hate and prejudice in schools.
No, it’s not a truism. Sometimes it’s just someone who’s very weary of the gulity-till-educated-to-innocence tack of (poorly-designed) programs–and who has made the tactical error of actually attempting to answer a “So, when did you stop beating your wife?” type of question. The reason such questions are so rehtorically effective (“effective” being defined as “good at winding people up into spluttering mode”) is because a lot of people do consider it a truism.
I don’t think he’s doing that. I think (one of the things that) he’s more likely getting at is, with a shoulder-chip like that, you’ll find it getting knocked off on a routine basis. Dull, anti-productivity courses of all kinds are just part of the corporate world. It’s just one of those less-than-optimal features evolved into corporate entities that doesn’t do enough harm to die out.
I’m pretty much with tomndebb here–I don’t think such courses at the corporate level do much to either improve or degrade peoples’ attitudes. Then again, I’m a cynic about such things, who’s patiently waiting through enough decades to officially be a crotchety old curmudgeon.
Where I work, I pretty much am ‘the geek’. That allows me a certain lattitude when I get… curmudgey. They put up with it that I won’t tolerate their “truisms” that unless you’ve been enlightened by the yogis from HR, you are definitely a bigoted pig. People are actually pretty understanding of my distaste for rah-rah-kumbayah meetings and that it doesn’t interfere with my ability to work with and socialize with people from all walks of life.
There are lots of rah-rah type meetings that ever since I started my first job I’ve really hated going to. I usually show up and spend the time putting ideas on paper while someone’s droning on and on - or worse, showing very badly made videos - and try to look like I’m awake.
Every now and then one of these meetings is like a vacation, like when I have several people riding the geek’s butt to fix things they really ought to be able to fix themselves. (Like, oh, mouse came unplugged, printer needs ink). Then I kinda go and stare mindlessly forward knowing that for the next couple of hours, nobody’s going to bother me.
I think the day they gave up on me was one of those days they asked a ‘Have you stopped beating your wife yet?’ type question and I replied ‘mu.’
So, basically I do have chip-on-shoulder about mandatory programs like this, nobody at work nags me about it as long as I stay quiet at the ‘class’, and free donuts are the best kind.
I never said that most of the attendees liked the course. I said that, as instructors, that these were the classes when we were most likely to get hosed on a feedback form by a participant or two. (I can safely say that getting a negative rating on any of the other classes we delivered was extremely rare.)
I also didn’t say that the rest of the attendees expressed great joy at being there. Quite the opposite. Did you also notice that I said that these classes received the highest proportion of negative feedback?
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The material itself was developed as well as any huge mega-company can design it. Very flashy, lots of eye-catching stuff, glossy handouts, interactive video, etc. It did have a role-playing exercise (always a crowd-pleaser :rolleyes: ) that I wish I could’ve done away with, though.
In any event, you’re certainly in no position to judge the design of the material since you’ve probably never even seen it.
As far as my own motivation level…there’s no doubt as to whether I questioned the efficacy of the program. I delivered it, though, and I think I did it rather well. Put it this way…even the instructors that were in love with the material didn’t average any higher on their instructor ratings than I did as far as that course goes.
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And it’s a sling and a miss! Any program that’s poorly designed deserves criticism. Of course, the people that advocate ‘indoctrination without speculation’ would resent any type of examination of their material or motives.
(And watch the name-calling, or you may be labeled as Nondiverse.)
Surely…you must be aware by now that, just because you can’t see a negative, that doesn’t mean a positive exists. Similarly, just because you can see a modicum of positivity, that doesn’t mean the remainder is equally positive.
You may search for a failed diversity program that leads to fisticuffs or spewing racial epithets. You probably won’t find that. But, in all liklihood, you’ll also not find examples of corporate diversity programs that turned Crips to choir boys, Klansmen to camp counselors, or Democrats to Republicans.
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(underlining mine)
Exactly. In school. Now you’re catching on. Took long enough.
That’s the place for this type of philosophical/sociological indoctrination–not in the workplace.
I quoted you precisely. If you wish to clarify or retract a statement (message boards aren’t gospel), that’s fine, but don’t pretend you didn’t say something.
In other words, “one or two” negative ratings was extremely rare. Indeed, you start out by admitting that you hated doing the training. And you’re surprised you get negative feedback? This doesn’t support your argument at all.
True, I’m relying on the testimony of an unfriendly witness.
Who advocates ‘indoctrination without speculation’? You’re getting deeper and deeper into a morass of name calling and coporate butt-kissing. Perhaps you should look for a different jog.
LOL! You’re accusing me of the very thing you’re arguing in favor of…
That doesn’t make a lot of sense, on the syntactic level. Are you saying that knowing a little bit of a good subject doesn’t mean that a lot of good follows by knowing more about it? On the absolute level, no; one to one correlations are rare. In general, yes; more knowledge is better.
Re: diversity programs in schools vs. workplace:
You don’t teach fellow employees or help them adapt to a changing customer base? Perhaps you should find a new job. If you think new sales strategies are ‘indoctrination’, you’re just a bad math teacher and every student’s nightmare.
I’ve been to a fair amount of corporate seminars and training and whatnot. Most of them were a waste of time, but you get what you can out of them and make connections. If you, as the instructor, think what you’re doing isn’t valuable, it’s up to YOU to do something about it: Complain to the powers that be (yeah, I know that doesn’t work well) or pitch the material as best you can. Trying to teach something you don’t believe in is bad for you and bad for the people who’s needs you’re failing to address.
In this thread, you have failed miserably to demonstrate that teaching diversity isn’t valuable, all you’ve done is whine about your own lack of motivation for a course you didn’t have input into. Says more about you and your company than the subject matter.
Frankly, I think diversity is the most overrated virtue in the canon. It has been my obversation that most people tend to hang out with people like themselves, and not all the training or education in the world is going to change this. I visit the SDMB because I consider myself fairly intelligent (if you disagree, please do not abuse me of my fantasy) and I like a message board filled with hip, intelligent people.
And, frankly, IMO, the majority of the SDMB agrees with me, tho’ few of you would be willing to admit it. Anyone who comes on this board and posts something derogatory about blacks, Hispanics, or homosexuals is roasted by the membership at large (NightGirl is the example that springs most readily to mind) and warned by the moderators. However, one can post “white trash” all day long and few SDMBers will say one damn thing, and the moderators are conspicuous by thier silence. Prejudice is evil on this board unless it is directed at poor whites, especially if they live in the South.
even sven: “Imagine a place where wearing traditional lapplander hats out of respect for your place of birth wasn’t considered wierd.” What would be your reaction if I wore a Confederate flag on my jacket to show respect for my Southern ancestors, most of whom didn’t own slaves, but some of whom fought for the Confederacy?
To those people who believe education will solve everything: People are taught one thing in school and quite another in their families and schools. Often the teaching in the latter has a bigger impact than that in the former. After more than 42 years on the planet, I’ve noticed that the more time most white liberals spend away from school, the more their utterances resemble those of Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh. Why doesn’t all that education stick?
I’ve never had to attend diversity training because all of the places I’ve worked were all white or because the management had the brains to handle problems without mandatory seminars. However, my observation of people I’ve known who did attend such training, including some friends who hold management positions for big corporations, is that the bigots learn to keep their mouths shut; they don’t change thier hearts nor their minds. That’s probably a good thing, but pixiegrrl, tomndebb and DRomm, don’t delude yourselves that you’re making deep changes in the way people think. You aren’t.
Humans have always had the tendency to divide ourselves into Us vs. Them (dare I say the SDMB is the Enlightened vs. the Ignorant) and it isn’t going to change any time soon.
No, you didn’t, and you made a supposition based on no evidence. You may retract at your leisure, but I have no reason to do so.
Son, please try to read what I wrote and not what you wish to see. I said that negative responses were very rare in the other classes but far more likely in the diversity classes.
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You’re not the prosecutor here. You’re not even a jury member. You’re more like the cub reporter from CNN “recapsulizing” the news to fit your agenda.
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Son, read back. I called no names. And there’s no way a sensible person could draw the conclusions you’ve just expressed here.
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I’m afraid I can’t help you if you can’t comprehend simple syntax.
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Of course. Technical skills, customer service skills, communications skills…and more.
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Done.
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Here’s where you rocket off into left field again. Diversity classes aren’t sales strategies, and I didn’t teach math. My students liked me, too, so there’s another incorrect supposition on your part.
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If you would’ve spent more addressing the training instead of attacking me and coming to ludicrous conclusions, we might’ve gotten somewhere. In any event, you haven’t addressed the value of such training in the workplace, much less made any argument for it.
There being no additional value that I can see in instructing you, I believe I’ll let you have the last word as this thread sinks slowly into the abyss.
That sounds like something professional race baiters would say, sure.
“I’m not a racist, but…” really seems to get in their craw, too. As long as you agree with everything they say, you’re not a “bigot.”
In the 70’s, when I said that people should be judged on the content of their character without regard to color, I was a hopeless left-wing radical.
In 2002, when I say that people should be judged on the content of their character without regard to color, I’m an extreme right wing reactionary, and probably a bigot too.
Ummm, How did my name make that list? I have been pretty clear that I doubt that any workplace diversity training has much effect one way or the other.
My only question has been:
Where is the evidence that “diversity” is “divisive”?
While you have a point that snide remarks about poor whites probably are not attacked as fiercely as deliberate attacks on other groups,* I also see any number of stereotypes get past the “PC radar” (or whatever) on this MB.
Regardless of that issue, my question stands.
*I have participated in several threads where the stereotypes of “rednecks,” “hillbillies,” and “white trash” have been challenged. On at least two occasions, I have pointed out the racist basis for the term “white trash,” itself.
