So it looks like two percent of Pakistanis consider it acceptable for a woman to appear in public with her hair fully exposed.
That’s not trolling. I was giving a rather clear analogy worded strongly since I obviously do not agree: if the opinion of white males and specific religions can be singled out and disregarded as a group, so can the opinion of non-white women of other religions.
Disagreement? Nah. Your post was worded to incite a reaction, not as a rebuttal to an opinion.
If you have further issues, take it to ATMB.
It would seem that it would have been simpler to post your citation, as I asked, rather than having a hissy fit.
I am not sure that your assertion is proven, since you have not actually demonstrated that women will be harassed for not following the preferred custom.
The question asked was what is “most appropriate”?, not what is or should be permitted?
If you have an actual complaint about my moderating, take it to ATMB. This sort of irrelevant sniping has no place in this thread.
You’re both wrong :). From the cite:
So yeah, assuming this is a good survey, it suggests that 78% of Pakistanis don’t think a woman should be free to choose how she dresses–and that’s a big freakin’ problem. I would bet good money that you’d get a much higher percentage on this question in the US, so this isn’t a place where we can draw real equivalencies between Pakistan and the US. And I’d be very interested in the answers to that exact question in France–that is, how many folks in France think a woman should be allowed to wear a burqa if she wants?
Hank, you are cherry-picking phrases that do not really support your claim. Your first bolded statement (the only one that supports your claim), harassment for failing to cover the head is one of several reasons given for covering the head, and it is neither the first nor last reason given, leaving the strength of its force unknown.
The other references are to protection from sexist catcalls of the sort that are periodically cited as a problem for women in New York or Rome.
What? I have given a citation that one of the reasons that women in Pakistan cover their head is for safety.
Which differs from your original claim that in “vast sections” of Pakistan, they did it to avoid religious persecution.
You’ve already been through this earlier, today, and seem willing to move as many goalposts as you need to to cling to your belief.
Have fun with it.
So if you didn’t assert that women throw on headscarves while shopping due to religious pressure, what exactly did you mean here?
I asserted and have shown that one of the reasons that women in Pakistan wear head coverings in public is for safety from being harassed and attacked by men who feel that uncovered women are “asking for it”.
Of course street harassment of women is extremely rare in New York, London, and relevant to the thread… Paris.
It is so lucky that we have the internet white knights who hate us to save us from ourselves so we can be cat called by good white christian heritage people who are not scary to them.
he will never admit he made lies and exagerations for justification, it is too important to the fake solicitude which is nothing but a politically convenient excuse to dress the bigotry in.
of course since he reads a thing on the internet that matches his bigotry this means he knows reality better the people who live in a place and better than what the real photos of markets shows, oh yes he knows even better what is in the minds.
he means whatever he needs to mean to justify his ideas and his hatreds. Nothing else. He knows in his heart that the religion is evil and we are as well, and he knows that the best political excuse for advancing his arguments is to pretend to care for the women, who are oppressed you know and must have the false consciousness, and are beaten every day when not having the acid thrown at us. It is a daily happening of course. especially in the no go zones.
I know, you are the victim, you poor thing. Muslims all over the world are rioting and killing over a cartoon as we speak, Muslim women are abused and harassed and being killed and raped by their fellow Muslims, and it is all the fault of those horrible white men. How dare white men mention the over the top rape culture prevelant among Muslims, and exemplified by the burqa and hijab. The 50,000 Shias killed in Pakistan. Yep white guys, our fault too. Quran 4:34, which commands husbands to beat disobedient wives, white men again. Boko Haram’s thousands of dead and their slaves, ISIS’s thousands of dead and their slaves, all the white mans fault. It could not possibly have anything to do with the fact that all of these criminals fetishize the behavior of a prophet who slaughtered people and kept and traded slaves, nor the fact that their religion gives permission and detailed instructions to it’s followers on the killing and the keeping of slaves. Nope, nothing to do with any of that. Always the white man’s fault. The white man is always drawing those cartoons and discussing Islam on the internet, after all. And the Jews targeted and killed by Muslims, that’s the fault of the white man too. It has nothing to do with the antisemitic hate speech from the Quran which is spread like a poison all over the Muslim world, nothing at all. The mass rapes in Tahrir square, of Muslim women and Western journalists. Yep you guessed it, white men, not the rapists’ own culture that grants women partial agency over their own bodies only if they obey strict codes of conduct based on Iron Age notions of modesty. And not Islam. Anything but Islam. Just keep accusing anyone who mentions any of these things of bigotry and hatred, it’s working out well for you so far to misconstrue opposition to a horrible set of ideas as hatred of people.
So yeah, anyway, as I have shown, women in Pakistan wear head coverings to avoid being targetted and attacked by men who have been taught that women who don’t cover are “asking for it”, and the problem is far worse there than anywhere in the West, regardless of what lies the propaganda from the Muslim world spins about the decadent West, and regardless of the false equivilencies spun by apologists. When you attack people with accusations of bigotry for mentioning these things rather than respond to what is actually being said, it only makes more obvious your inability to grapple honestly with these issues.
Wow. What a load of bigoted tripe. And wholly unnecessary: as I showed before, there’s some research showing that 78% of Pakistans who responded to a poll don’t think women ought to be able to make the decision for themselves about what constitutes an appropriate level of head-covering.
There are serious problems is many Muslim countries that stem from religious interpretations, and I think it’s fair to say that these are worse than the similar problems that current stem from religious interpretations of Christianity (with some exceptions, viz., condom use in Africa, continuing Manifest Destiny ideas attached to Christianity). But when you launch into this sort of flailing screed against Islam in general, you make it impossible to address the real problems.
Et voila, the perfect representation of the real motivations behind his posting, the grotesque hatred and bigotry. It was never any real concern.