France's "burqa ban": will it just drive muslim woman into seclusion?

Story: http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/04/11/frances-burqa-ban-comes-into-force-with-much-noise-little-impact/

For the record, I am in favor of the new law, for a multitude of reason, but didn’t really start this thread to debate those. Though if this turns into a debate that’s fine w/me.

Anyway, will this, as detractors claim, simply cause muslim women to retreat into seclusion into their homes, further segregating them and possibly hiding any abuse from outside eyes?

Also, I haven’t seen any news stories where muslim MEN are commenting…doesn’t that seem odd?

Judging by the article you posted, it sounds like the most likely result of the law will be that the cops won’t bother enforcing and it will be effectively forgotten within a few years.

Whether French society manages to weather the threat from 300 woman being allowed to wear the clothing of their choice remains to be seen.

Care to elaborate on why you are in favor the law? And what country do you live in? Especially if you think it will drive women into seclusion (usually the OP is supposed to offer some sort of indication where he stands on the issue).

Yes, I do think this will drive some women into seclusion. But France has a pretty large Muslim population, only a fraction of whom would be affected. Might more women be driven out of the religion altogether or into less extreme forms of it?

Maybe men aren’t commenting because it’s the women who are angry? The women in France seem to be the ones who *choose *a burqa or niqab.

Yes, it may drive some into seclusion. Regardless of what happens in that secluded environment, these Muslim women shouldn’t be marginalized.

This law was about anti-Muslim sentiment. I suppose the French government was hoping that Muslim women would be less likely to choose the burqa or niqab in the future. The French “don’t like to see that” in the streets.

I’m in Oz.

I actually just stumbled across an essay that pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject, but is written so much better than I could do:

http://ozsoapbox.com/world/islam/top-5-non-religious-reasons-to-ban-the-burqa/

One quote, which I totally agree with:

**"The whole concept of being modest in Islam appears to be to remove all physical temptation, from men. If Islam attracts guys who can’t keep it in their pants then fair enough, but what about the rest of us? Every time I see a burqa I’m subconsciously reminded that the reason she’s dressed like that is so that I don’t instantly turn into a slobbering uncontrollable animal and try to mate with her.

I mean that’s what it comes down to doesn’t it?

How about taking back the notion of self control and placing the burden of responsibility where it belongs, on the potential offender – not the potential victim."**

I agree 100% with the other four reasons to support the ban as well.

This. From something I was reading earlier on one of the news sites about all of this, I’d say the cops aren’t going out of their way to enforce the ban, unless the women in question are doing ‘illegal protests’…which seems to be being noticed in public from what I could tell from the article.

If the cops generally ignore the women wearing the things, then I’d say it will be like other laws that are on the books but are generally ignored since they aren’t enforced.

-XT

So you think an article of clothing should be banned because it communicates a message you disagree with?

:rolleyes: Exaggerate much? Geez. Look I don’t have the time or the energy to debate this with you right now. I was just asking what you all think will the the actual effect of the law on burqa-wearing women.

I was about to ask pretty much the same thing. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration at all.

This is GD, and side debates about the goodness or badness of the law are inevitable. If you really feel the need to outlaw such discussion, you should get a mod to rule on that.

But the thing is, how could one really be in favor of this law if you take the position that it will, in fact, drive women into seclusion?

What part of "I but didn’t really start this thread to debate those. Though if this turns into a debate that’s fine w/me." in my OP didn’t you understand?

Please show where I state that I personally feel that this will be the effect.

I don’t think what I wrote is an unfair summary of what you wrote. If I misunderstood you can feel free to clarify.

In general, four out of the five points in that essay boil down to “I don’t like Burkas because X, therefore they should be illegal”. While I certainly don’t have a problem with people disliking Burkas, or even acting on those dislikes by trying to convince people not to wear them, I hardly think that justifies making it illegal to wear them.

You said you didn’t have a problem with people debating the more general issues around Burka wearing in your OP (and I did address the primary question you asked as well).

Should we allow nudists to go about their business in town nude, because requiring them to wear clothes would drive them into seclusion?

So religious women shouldn’t dress modestly? Should religious women wear Daisy dukes and high heels? Why should an article of clothing be banned because it makes men uncomfortable? If a woman wants to wear a niqab, let her.

This part:

Please show me where I said you did. In fact, in my first post I noted that you didn’t weigh in on the issue, and that I thought you should.

How does wearing a niqab or burqa equate to being naked? :confused:

I said that ***I ***am not interested in debating the rightness or wrongness of the law. Just the effect of it. But that if others want to debate, go for it.

You’re just itching to start a fight here ain’t ya? :rolleyes:

Maybe that’s the original reason for Islamic modest standards, I don’t know enough to answer that. But my best guess is that if you asked women who voluntarily wear a burqa why they do, this wouldn’t be the top answer. Social habits can be pretty ingrained, until it’s darn right uncomfortable to change them. If a woman feel uncomfortable appearing in public without a burqa, I think there is a good chance that she will decide to stay out of the public if she is disallowed the wearing of one. I also think that banning the burqa will piss off a lot of people who don’t wear them and will be seen as an attack on Islam. "How dare you forbid my mother/wife/sister/friend/neighbor from wearing what she wants?

Example - my grandmother was born about 1900. She never wore shorts, I only saw her wear pants when doing physical work that would be dangerous to do in a skirt. So what if someone decided that wearing a skirt was a sign that she was being oppressed by her religion, and declared that all women must wear pants or shorts in public? I believe Grandma would have either chosen to stay home or broken the rules. To her, skirts and dresses were what she felt comfortable wearing.

Let these women where what they want. The practice will most likely die away in a generation or two, if it is really a holdover from being forced to wear them. In the mean time, why make a couple of generations of women uncomfortable and embarassed to go out in public.

Chill, dude.

I asked you why you thought the law was a good one, you responded, and another poster challenged you. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. This is GD. We debate things. You’re not going to be able to just post shit here and not defend it. We have other forums for that.

I’m against the new law, but then I am one of those people who believes in freedom of religion.
At least it’s not my country that’s doing it (as far as I know).

Were it the mormons rather than the muslims demanding the complete covering of women to protect their modesty, and suppress their individuality — or any other odd semi-christian sect — the board would utterly denounce christianity, anti-feminist hatred of women, and God, in that order…
It basically does not matter what the French do, since they have the right to pass such laws they like, whether those laws upset Americans, muslims or Martians. Should those very few muslims degraded enough to want to cover themselves or their women object, they can go and live in a muslim country that endorses such behaviour.