Does free will exist?

I’m not going to respond to every line of your reply, because things will quickly fork and become unintelligible.

Your basic sensitivity to initial conditions (‘chaos’) can yield effectively random behavior. The system is deterministic, but it may be physically impossible (given physical computational constraints on the universe) to differentiate it from truly random behavior.

But the difference between deterministic decisions (ie “no free will” by you) and non-deterministic ones does completely hinge on it. I even offered a simple proof of this fact whose premise is quantum mechanics. The difference between “free will” and none hinges upon it. Every difference in decision making that deviates from deterministic can be traced back to a coin flip. You can vaguely believe that it’s really more complex that this, that somehow sprinkling a little randomness into a complex system can make magic happen – but this is wrong – regardless of the validity of the MDM or any other. It is a quantum mechanical system, full stop. It is the same as though we all lived in a fully deterministic world (ie we had “no free will” by you) and yet flipped a coin every once in a while to oil our thinking/decision making process. By you, that act of flipping a coin in those situations where “the hinges can be oiled” is where “free will” jumps into existence. The act of flipping a coin is a really dumb example of “free will”!

“Hey guys, I’d like to go to dinner with you, but a quantum mechanical state just collapsed inside my brain at 5-sigma away from the expectation value of the wave function, and determined randomly that I do not want to go to dinner!” Free will indeed!

To me the existence of an element of the random adds much less to the system than you seem to think. I certainly don’t see how it is effectively (ie for all intents and purposes regarding human decision making) any different from deterministic yet chaotic behavior.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I had understood you to say ‘some would argue that wave function collapse is deterministic in the MWI’, which threw me for a loop.

This is a point that’s been raised, but not discussed much, before. Essentially, determinism only applies to closed systems – for instance, in the MWI, the sequence of events in any given branch of the wave function is random, but that randomness is really a result of our not being able to survey the universal wave function ‘from the outside’. It’s like having a computer spit out every possible bit string: that’s a deterministic process of course, but some (actually, almost all) of those bit-strings will be (Martin-Löf) random.

So, if I’m correct, there are two main approaches to this free-will dealy. One is the deterministic, physics based approach. That’s what is currently being discussed, and frankly I think my own waveforms collapsed after a few paragraphs.

The second is metaphysical, correct? Copenhaugen, the will can’t be free because it can’t will itself. I’m the rankest of amateurs in philosophy, but what is the big problem with an infinite-regress solution? Maybe it can will itself. What if some things actually do infinitely regress, with no start or cause? Sure I guess it goes against a formal logical system (if that’s what you’d call it), but maybe reality is cylical. Maybe there is no bottom turtle. While I’m sure somebody will be along shortly to point out there are problems out the flaming wazoo with an infinite-regress solution to the problem of ‘willing a will,’ I personally don’t see it.

And, even if it can’t will itself, what again does that exactly mean?

I thought the concern wasn’t about effects. It was about causes. It was, correct me if I’m wrong, wheteher the will is truly free. What you seem to be saying here is that it is “effectively” free anyway, so what’s the problem?

True enough. But the will isn’t just built on the freedom, IYKWIM.

Not so fast. What does this even mean in this context?

I don’t see it that way. If the randomness is as thoroughly pervasive as I think it is, there’s no region you can isolate to say “coin flips happen here, but not there”. So the model of “deterministic with coin flips” just doesn’t cut it for me.

Here you go with the NTS argument. How is it dumb? Is it non-deterministic? Then it’s free, plain and simple.

That’s a complete strawman of the model I spoke about. IMO, free will doesn’t rely on the quantum random, it relies on the macroscopic random. The QM argument is just to show that such things as Brownian motion and nuclear decay truly random, not to argue that that’s the level you have to descend to to find the freedom. It’s more like “Hey, I was going out, but you know what, for some reason I can’t pin my finger on (but probably something to do with variable electrolyte diffusion rates in my ganglia awakening this memory of Bill’s flatulence rather than *that *one of Bill’s humour when I think about dining with you guys) I feel like pizza on my own instead”

It’s not “an element” of the random. It’s *everything *about the system having a random component to it. And “effectively” it is no different. But determinists aren’t concerned with such approximations, are they? They’re concerned with the root causality behind things, and so am I (or the lack thereof, anyway)

Not really. We’re arguing about two different physics-based models, both of which include a metaphysical component

Personally, I don’t have a problem with infinite regress in some form, even if it’s not *my *solution.

Either we’re robots, or bam! Goddidit.

Instead of a soul, can’t consciencess or the mind suffice? Let me guess, that gets back into the first problem…

Right, so at some point a quantum fluctuation catalyzes down the line a random variability in the awakening of different memories. You can always trace the system back to a point where a fluctuation ultimately caused a difference in whether memory A or memory B was awakened. A coin flip. Bifurcations caused by variability in sensitive initial conditions in a complex system. For every choice you may wish to consider, one can always trace the system back to the bifurcation point caused by the random fluctuation. You can always partition the evolution of the system into “deterministic + coin flips”. And there will always be a single (not necessarily unique mind you) coin flip on which the difference between a “deterministic” and “non-deterministic” choice hinges.

!batman, I don’t think so - the difference isn’t between deterministic/nondeterministic in a choice, the difference is between an entire deterministic milieu or a stochastic one. In other words, if I’m right, the will was *never *deterministic, since the coin-flips are built into the very fabric of Mind. IOW, there is no baseline deterministic state to differentiate from. determinism just isn’t in it. It’s all been stochastic since before Minds evolved, and determinism is as useful as Newton’s Laws - very, but somewhat limited in scope and not universal. There has never been a purely deterministic choice made by a conscious entity.

You *could * see this as the very first quantum fluctuation in the Planck Epoch being the coin flip for every Mind, but what’s the point? As I see it, every individual Mind has had innate stochastic elements since inception - therefore no Mind has ever been bound by causality. Every Will has always been Free.
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Autolycus
- pretty much, yeah.

MrDibble, you’ve veered a little bit off course, me thinks. You second paragraph above doesn’t seem related to anything I’ve said or argued.

In your first paragraph, you say:
the difference isn’t between deterministic/nondeterministic in a choice, the difference is between an entire deterministic milieu or a stochastic one

I find this to be a very hand-wavy argument. Very vaguely inferring that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. The ‘milieu’ you refer to is, as I keep trying to emphasize, just a complex quantum system. We can treat it as such. This system is deterministic, until collapse occurs. When collapse occurs, it is like a coin flip (basically). It doesn’t matter whether there are many collapses happening in many places in the brain at the same time. At the end of the day we are talking about free will. Free will is about choices. And no matter how complex the ‘milieu’, the difference in choices due to the element of randomness can ultimately be traced back to single coin flips upon which the difference hinges. I am describing a property of the physical world which you should not avoid.

I’m pretty much out of the discussion at this point, but there’s one question I never seem to be able to find a good answer to: if for some event there does not exist sufficient reason (i.e. if it’s not determined), then how does it happen? How can something be truly random? If two possibilities, A and B, are equally likely to occur, what happens in order to choose, say, B over A? I’m not asking why B happens, but merely how – what is the process through which something happens if it is not determined to happen? I know, the answer typically is ‘there is no process’, or ‘it just happens that way’, or anything along those lines. Both A and B could happen, and B happens, that’s all. Most people seem content with this, but to me, this seems to be a deeply unsatisfactory answer. In order to choose B over A, surely somehow, somewhere, a choice must be made. But how can that choice be made if there is no sufficient reason for it? It’s a well-posed question, but it doesn’t seem, in principle, answerable – since any answer would provide a determining mechanism, and remove the stipulated randomness. If I were to accept this, I should just as well accept ‘God did it’ as ultima ratio.

I completely agree with you HMHW. I have also never gotten a satisfactory answer to that question. I don’t think true randomness is a coherent concept.

I also think that many physicists, such as Einstein, thought the same thing during the development of quantum mechanics. Unfortunately those who resisted the notion of randomness lost the fight – and were subsequently painted as having been ‘tied-down by classical intuition.’ I personally believe that if the MWI had been discovered at the beginning of the development of quantum mechanics, the Copenhagen interpretation would be considered crackpot today.

Ah, this old chestnut. Several months ago I opened a thread, which never got any traction, in which I proposed a solution that I call soft of psychological compatibilism. In sum, my thesis was and remains that (i) the problem of the will is a scientific or psychological question, not a logical or philosophical one, (ii) neither libertarian free will nor determinism adequately describe how the mind works and (iii) observation suggests we generally have volition, i.e., the ability to direct our behavior and make decisions without benefit of a pre-defined decision tree, but its exercise is influenced and constrained by various factors, including genetics, socialization, personality and life experience. In the interest of brevity, I’m not repeating the entire argument here, but would request that anyone responding to this post review the linked thread. In it, I anticipate many of the obvious objections and explain why I don’t find them compelling. With that as background, I have several observations about the current thread.

First, I should like to point out that although many Dopers, in this and past threads, treat strict determinism as if it were obviously correct, this is a distinctly minority view. Among professional philosophers, compatibilism is by far the dominant view. Compatibilists say, yes, the mind is determined, but we nonetheless have the sort of free will (which I prefer to call volition) necessary to assign agency and moral responsibility. Among regular folks, some version of LFW is dominant and the foundation of criminal law, social interaction and political economics. Indeed, among Dopers taken as a whole, LFW assumptions permeate almost all debates here (e.g., should so-and-so notorious criminal be eligible for parole) except those on free will itself, in which only a small self-selected group generally participate. Many of whom, it should be noticed, are primarily interested in the implications of the issue for the theological problem of evil.

Second, I have to agree with those who argue randomness isn’t free will. As almost everyone conceives it, free will and volition have to do with agency and moral responsibility. Randomness supplies neither. Consider an example. A spider’s ability to spin a web is supplied genetically. Where it spins a particular web is determined by the random facts of where it happens to be at the time, the substrates available to anchor the web and so on. Those random facts don’t make construction of the web volitional as most people use the term. Still less does randomness in the form of quantum indeterminacy which, even if true, is so far removed from the meat of the problem as to be irrelevant. Stated a little differently, I don’t assume human thought *can’t *be deterministic. In principle, it could be just as deterministic as the spider’s, albeit more complex and similarly confounded by random factors.

Third, where I think determinism falls down isn’t that it can’t be true but that it isn’t. I explain why in the thread linked above. Consider language. We start with a genetic capacity, vocal cords, eyes, ears and speech processing centers in the brain. As we’re socialized, we’re exposed to language and learn to use it ourselves. Along the way, we pick up a vocabulary and grammar rules. Many of us even learn to think about how to use language to be more effective speakers and writers. It’s an extended process, but at some point we may be said to have a facility, a module if you will, which enables us to formulate and express ideas. Is this facility or module deterministic? I don’t think so. Obviously it was formed by a set of inputs, genetic and social, but in use it goes beyond those inputs. The whole is more than the sum of its parts. That’s what enabled Tolkein to write The Lord of the Rings, King to give powerful speeches on civil rights and us to have a conversation about free will. Something independent and supervening is going on when we use language which goes beyond the inputs. Not free of them, by any means - Tolkein and King certainly had influences - but not entirely captured or explained by them either. Nor is language the only thing of which this can be said. It can be said of the skills of a carpenter, plumber or electrician, or a hunter, warrior or baseball player, or a cook, scientist or kindergarten teacher. Indeed, I would say the hallmark of just about everything we learn is that the whole is greater than the sum of its inputs, i.e., that what we develop is a set of skills we can apply to novel problems. On this view, decision making is just another facility or module, like language and carpentry.

Fourth, what I find noticeably lacking from the position of strict determinists in this and similar prior threads is an explication of what follows if their view were accepted. As noted, it has implications for the theological problem of evil, but other than that what? If we are to do everything else the same - criminal law, social interaction and political economics - why should anyone care? Frankly, I think this is why free will threads get so little attention here.

I thought it nicely addressed the difference between how I think the brain works and determinists do.

But the whole *is *greater than the sum.

I disagree.

I disagree. there’s no part of it that is.

Partly. It’s about the choices (that randomness contributes to), as well as the processes that choose, which also partake in randomness.

The distance between the milieu randomness and the choices is big enough to render it pretty irrelevant. To say that it reduces to single coin flips is a classic example of what Dennett calls “greedy reductionism” - it attempts to explains away rather than explain.

I haven’t avoided it - I just don’t think that’s where the “Free” in “Free Will” resides.

We don’t know what causes that collapse; or why one particle decays today and another with the identical wave function decays 5 million years from now, etc. What is to say that your will isn’t capable of preventing one collapse and bringing on another? And that’s why I still say quantum mechanics allows for free will.

Your mind can control itself. Not only that, but it can determine to control itself. Someone with a habit that largely determines their behavior, (something they find hard to do or not to do,) can decide this is a “bad” habit they don’t want to give in to anymore. And with work, hard work of retraining their brain themselves, change that habit. It happens. Your mind can control itself. It’s also true that people tend not to take the hard steps of retraining their brain when they don’t believe in free will. (as already cited.)

So, when you don’t believe in free will, you don’t tend to control your own mind. You let it do what it feels like doing.
When you do believe in free will, you’re more likely to control your mind and change what you let it feel like doing.

I conclude from that: If you don’t believe in free will you probably don’t have it and see no evidence for it. If you believe in it, it’s possible to have it, and you’ll see evidence for it. Seeing the same evidence of someone changing a habit, the non-believer says, “random coin flip;” the believer says, “my mind changed itself, and I determined that it would do that. I saw the possible outcomes for the coin and determined which one would happen.” (i.e. it’s not turtles all the way down as one non-believer put it.) Free will is specifically exercised when you go against your nature; when you change what it is you want to do.

Free will is still a very useful concept and it’s better for society if people believe it.
I think it’s irresponsible to preach otherwise. It promotes bad behavior to say free will doesn’t exist. And it’s the forseeable consequence. It’s obvious that if you tell people they don’t control what they want to do, they will choose not to try to control what they want to do. It entirely forseeable that they will continue in bad behavior; that they will start new bad behaviors because they are convienent and easy. “I have this feeling to do something convenient for me. Sure it will hurt others, but I have no control over my will, so their is no point in trying to control my will; there is no point in trying to do something else. I fell like doing this; I’ll just do it. I’m just a passenger anyway.”

Another apropos SMBC comic today:

Since Quantum Theory can predict precise events (even though probability is supposed to enter into the calculations) does this mean the universe is deterministic and there is no ‘free will’? Some contend that the probabilities involved in Quantum calculations means there is therefore no ‘strict causality’. But do not Quantum’s precise predictions imply ‘strict causality’? Strict causality implies an unalterable chain of events flowing from causes and therefore the future is ‘cast in stone’ and our brain’s calculations have been predetermined since forever.

Every action in existence was caused by preceding actions.

Every thought is an action.

So every thought in existence was caused by preceding thoughts and actions.
If every single thing you do is caused by things that happened before, things that you have no control over, how is it that you have control over your present actions?

you don’t

This isn’t strictly true. I don’t know if the exceptions have much to do with how the brain makes decisions though.

You could free yourself from determinism by basing your decision on a stochastic process like the moment a particle will radiate away another particle. But that isn’t free will either, just a really fancy coin toss.

If free will existed wouldn’t a chemical reaction in the brain have to violate physics and decide to do something it wasn’t supposed to do? Otherwise it would have done what it was supposed to and you wouldn’t be able to change it. But chemical reactions can’t decide what they want to do.