Does God reward guile and deceit?

Great Debates
1

IANAbiblical scholar, but I seem to remember a passage in Genesis whereas Jacob, twin brother of first-born Esau, pulls a fast one on their dad and pretends he IS Esau, recieving enormous blessings from said dad, who apparently is quite blind and deaf to fall for the disguise.

Jacob eventually has a name change to Israel…thus, being the father of the tribes which will one day be a nation.

This certainly smacks of bearing false-witness…a commandment not yet issued to Man, but still…how does God permit this?

2

I think that God in the Bible admires cleverness, and certainly likes Jacob. Jacob not only tricks Isaac, pretending he’s Esau, he also tricks Laban, his father in law, using striped hazel rods to get healthy sheep to produce striped lambs and unhealthy sheep to produce unstriped lambs. Then, of course, Laban tricks Jacob, first marrying him to his daughter Laban instead of his daughter Rachel. Then later, his sons trick him, telling him his son Joseph is dead when he’s really a slave in Egypt, and Joseph tricks him and Jacob’s brothers, pretending not to know them and that Benjamin is a thief, and his son Judah is tricked by Tamar, who pretends to be a prostitute so she can have children. So, the whole story of Jacob is the story of people tricking each other.

3

Well, arguing the logic of the God of the Bible (especially here) is going to be rough. From what I remember, is that it was prophesied to Rebecca, that the older brother would serve the younger brother, but she never let Isaac in on this. I can’t remember why. Maybe Isaac was just too hung up on tradition? Or maybe, God cares more to punish stupidity, rather than clever deceitfulness? I mean, c’mon… animal skin on your arms? I don’t care how blind you are — you’re pretty dense if you can’t figure that out.

So, to sum up, because of the prophesy, while the twins were in the womb, she made sure Jacob got the birthright… despite Isaac’s plans.

4

Abraham sure came out ahead both times he tried to pass Sarah off as his sister instead of his wife.

5

Please show proof of the existence of a god of any kind, much less one who would permit this.

6

whispers Religion is BS! :wink:

7

First, I assume Isaac knew of the prophecy about Jacob & Esau, and so overcompensated by favoring Esau, as a result of which he became a lumbering dullard, taking not one, but TWO Cannanite wives, and holding the birthright so lightly that he’d sell it for a bowl of stew. Isaac, not knowing of that deal & unheeding of the prophecy & still favoring Esau, was still going to give him the birthright & blessing, so Jacob & his Mom decided to make sure he got it.

AND what did Jacob get in the short run for his deceit of his father & his cheating of his brother? At least fourteen years of living as a fugitive from his brother, with a treacherous uncle who kept changing his wages AND cheated him out of seven years of labor so he could marry his beloved. AND he finally gets his new name/identity as Israel by being crippled for life by Jesus (yeah, that’s Who I think he was wrestling).

AND what did Esau get out of being cheated? By the time he & Jacob meet, Esau has apparently gotten his act together, had a large brood, acquired much wealth, seems to have a reverence towards God and forgiveness for his brother. He was probably a better man for having been cheated, while Jacob did not get off scot free for having done the cheating.

8

And of course, the Usual Suspects show up to piss on everything.

9

Look, guys, it’s perfectly possible to discuss the motivations of the characters in the Bible without believing that actual people and/or entities actually did the things described in the Bible. We can talk about Odysseus and Zeus without batting an eyelid, why can’t we talk like grownups about Jacob and Esau and YHWH?

10

Is it fair to answer “My theory is that God is a tricky bastard who likes people like himself”?

'Cause, if the myths aren’t completely fiction, that’s my theory. God being a tricky bastard actually explains a lot.

11

Because people who believe in the Bible are Those Other People, and we don’t like Those Other People!

12

If you’re hoping for a simple and clear-cut answer from real theologians, you’re in for a disappointment.

According to traditional Jewish commentators, the set-up is like this: Esau is a class A jerk. Jacob is a nice guy, if a bit naive- in fact he’s a bit of a mama’s boy.

Esau sells his birthright- basically, the right to be Isaac’s primary heir- for a bowl of bean soup. This does not speak well for Esau’s commitment to the family cause. It also means that Jacob is now technically the firstborn, and the rightful recipient of Isaac’s blessing.

Problem is, Isaac has a blind spot when it comes to his actual older son. Daddy dotes on Esau, and refuses to believe he could do any wrong. Esau is also very careful not to misbehave when his father’s around.

So, Rebecca- who has a lot better insight into her sons’ natures than Isaac does- figures that if Jacob can’t get his blessing outright, he can disguise himself as Esau. If you look at the text (especially in the orignal Hebrew), Jacob is rather reluctant, but Rebecca gives him some goat skins and tells him not to worry.

This segues into the age-old question of whether the ends justify the means. As those of you familiar with the saying, “Three Jews, three opinions” can guess, the only consensus is that there is no consensus. Even the rabbis who say Jacob’s deception was ultimately justified admit that this is a very, very grey area.

You can’t really argue that Jacob went scot-free and lived happily ever after, either. Immediately after the birthright fiasco, he has to run away from an angry Esau. He spends twenty years in exile, living with a conniving sneak of an uncle (there’s a reason he felt the need to pull the tricks with the sheep). He ends up accidentally married to four women, only one of whom he really loves. She dies on the way back home. His daughter gets raped, his favorite son gets kidnapped and sold into slavery by his own brothers. No, his life wasn’t all fun and games.

13

You can’t be surprised.

If I remember correctly, Jacob’s life after his deceit wasn’t all peachy keen. I take the story as a lesson that God doesn’t immediately punish every sin, nor reward every good act, and that free will and redemption are powerful things.

14

If by reward you mean not punishing it directly, signs point to yes.

15

This. I am an atheist, but I can discuss Bible events IN TERMS OF THE STORY. I can also respect the opinions of person who differ from me. It’s called not being eleven.

16

Wait, I’m confused–how is Esau a jerk? How is Jacob naive?

I’ve always seen it that Jacob was devious and Esau fairly stupid; and that the Lord, for his ever-inscrutable reasons, had chosen the former as the ultimate father of the nation promised to Abraham. Isaac, preferring his firstborn, had nonetheless determined to pass the birthright on to him, whereupon Jacob & his mother took it upon themselves to get that birthright rather than trust in Providence. Drama then ensued, and said drama may be seen as the result of their not trusting in the Lord’s plan.

17

Skald- I don’t have time to talk now, because Shabbat is in about 15 minutes, but I’ll try to answer your question tomorrow night.

18

You won’t read this for a day or two, of course, but thanks!

19

The moment you prove the non-existence of God, k?

20

There are issues between Jacob and Essau that predate birth, their battle started in the womb (Gen 25:22). It is the battle that brings both sides to God, Jacob gets blessings and that is what he needs to get to God, while Essau gets curses and that is what he needs to get to God. God uses the natural battle between these 2 brothers for His purpose and glory. So it’s not rewarding deceit but rewarding in spite of man’s deceit.