Does golf have too many rules?

The Game Room
61

You missed my point: George Brett violated the rule; the only thing the League President did was decide the wrong penalty was applied.

And what would you propose for a change?

Snedeker was penalized because he soled his club, thus addressing the ball, and it moved. The implication is that it moved because of his address of the ball. As I think was pointed out earlier in this thread (I’m not bothering to check), this is a penalty because otherwise, a person could finagle the ball into the hole, or at least into a better position on the green, simply by addressing the ball in such a way as to nudge it without taking what would be considered a “stroke.” Golf tries very hard not to get into judging intent, because it’s such a subjective thing; very few of the rules are subjective in any way.

As for Mickelson, what would you propose? The Rules of golf only recognize three areas of a hole: the green, the hazards, and everything that isn’t the green or the hazards. They don’t recognize rough, fairways, waste areas, etc. Presumably, you would want Mickelson limited to dropping his ball in such a way that it remained in the gnarly rough. But, while that’s potentially easy to do on a PGA course, I defy you to do that out on the county public course that is lucky if it gets mowed once a month. How do you define things like collars, mown areas, etc., in a way that can be applied to all golfing venues? Remember: the Rules apply everywhere exactly the same way. That’s the beauty of golf’s rules (similar to soccer’s laws): everyone is playing by the same rules no matter who or where
they are.

The Scots have a phrase for lucky and unlucky results from things like Mickelson’s situation: the rub o’ the green. It means that sometimes, you get lucky, and sometimes, you get unlucky: them’s the breaks. :cool:

62

Rule #?

If a golf ball moves while on the green, without having been struck with a club, the ball shall be replaced without penalty.

Rule #?+1

When taking free relief due to interference of stance, the ball shall be dropped or placed (as otherwise stipulated) in such as way that it comes to rest in grass approximately the same length of that from which it was extricated. (Adapt as necessary to cover bunkers/hazards)

Additionally-

Rule #?+2

Anyone caught trying to ‘finagle’ a golf ball shall be summarily de-pants and shall cede ownership of one club per finagle to their playing partner.

Trust me DSYoungEsq I’m all for the spirit of the rules-Play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it. But there are a few too many “Stick-Up My Ass Rules” and “Lucky Break, Wink Wink, Nudge Nudge Rules” that could easily be modified without much confusion or hardship to anyone. These should be redressed, if for no other reason than to prevent me from having an RO aneurysm. :wink:

63

I think the point is that the winner of a game should be determined to the greatest extent possible by who plays best.

There is an intersection out there- how much cheating can happen versus how niggling the rules can be. The trick is to find the intersection, that place where the best players win as often as possible. Golf, maybe, has gone too far in one direction.

64

Define “struck.” When addressing the ball, the club almost always touches the ball: does this mean it has been “struck?” Or do you mean struck to be the equivalent of taking a stroke at it? In which case, as I pointed out, a person could manipulate that rule easily, and your tongue in cheek suggestion of depantsing them isn’t going to go far on the PGA tour, now, is it? :dubious:

This is the whole POINT, folks. These rules didn’t just pop up over night. They are the result of a couple centuries of distillation of golfing results in Scotland, where the game developed, added to by the late 1800 and early 1900 efforts in the game here in the United States. They are written the way they are to deal with the issues that developed in the game as it grew. Daily golfers often don’t bother with them; the people I play with regularly long since turned the penalty for hitting out of bounds into something approximating the penalty for hitting into a lateral water hazard (drop at the spot it went out of bounds). We do that because it’s easier to deal with, avoiding the need for and time consumed by such things as provisional balls, returning to the tee, etc. We also do it because a large number of modern courses effectively do the same thing by delineating their exteriors with red staked hazards instead of white staked out of bounds areas (usually because the course winds through some sort of hilly, canyony, wetlandy, etc. area). I doubt much that the daily golfers of the world are all calling moving ball penalties on themselves even if the ball on the green does manage to move. But in competition, the rule is there because if it isn’t there, Bad Things Happen.

How do you determine this? What if it was in the only patch of really long grass? Do you get a ruler out to measure? Often, grass isn’t uniformly cut. It can be spotty as to length. Do I get to claim my ball is in the shorter stuff, surrounded by the longer stuff, and hunt down a shorter grassed area? Can you imagine the time this would take? And do you really think it would result in fewer examples of people getting a “break” under the rules???

I know you are being at least a little facaetious, but really. The rules are not “stuck up your ass” or “wink wink, nudge nudge.” I’ve been playing under their auspices for over forty years now. Sometimes, you get a break from them, sometimes you don’t. There is no way to write the rules to avoid that fact. Contrast the lucky dude whose ball ends up next to the sprinkler box, so he gets a drop, and the unlucky dude whose ball ends up just three feet away, buried in the gnarly stuff, but no drop allowed. How does this get made “fair?”

The trouble is that too many people view “fair” to mean “what should happen based upon the “merits” of the situation.” Life don’t work that way. :wink:

65

I can remember years ago watching a golf tournament, I think it was the Australian PGA and Greg Norman had to disqualify himself because he had incurred a penalty while taking a drop after hitting into a hazard. What amazed me was that Norman’s caddy, his playing partners and everyone watching had assumed he was behaving properly but I, a once a week, no official handicap golfer, would have (had I been in the gallery) screamed at him, “Don’t touch that ball. Play it where it is.”

66

My Dad used to be an avid golfer. He had a handicap of 3, in his prime.

But not me. I don’t even know what DQ means.

67

Huh? I’m trying to think of a single situation, from tee to green, in fairway or rough, when I would touch the ball when addressing it. And I’ve never noticed the pros doing it either. And of the many things my pro has told me I could improve, my club position at address is not one of them.

Somehow I missed this over the past 3-4 decades?

68

ISTR a player DQ’ing himself because one of his kid’s toy clubs was in the bottom of his bag and so he was over the limit. If the club is non-conforming, does it still count as a club?

69

To me as a non-golfer this has been an interesting thread. My only 2¢ on the matter is that DQing someone for failing to sign the card like Wie and others did is way too drastic a penalty. Penalizing someone a stroke or two I can see. Saying “Too bad kid, you go home now” is just crazy.

70

From the USGA Rules Of Golf, Section 2: “Definitions”…

Players (and Pros) often touch the ball with their club when addressing it. If it does not move (according to the definition above) then there is no penalty. However, if they do NOT touch it after addressing but the wind moves it, then there IS a penalty. As I’ve said before, this rule doesn’t redress any attempt to gain unfair advantage by the player, but instead delivers an random penalty as the result of capricious natural events.

On edit, I see I should repeat the rule 18-2b:

71

Well whaddya know?! All this talk about touching the ball with your club before the stroke is news to me.

So there is no penalty if the ball is lying on top of some grass, and when I ground my club, the grass moves in relation to the ground - but not in relation to the ball -and when I lift my club the grass and ball resume (at least very close to) their original position?

I’ve posed this question to many rather avid golfers, and the overwhelming consensus is that doing so would incur a penalty under the rules, and recommend not grounding your club in such a situation. The rules are a funny thing, if so many folk who are deeply interested in the game and try to adhere to the rules get it wrong.

72

Discussed this again yesterday with my buddy who carries a 3 and plays in many tourneys. His impression is that with the exception of on the tee, causing the ball to move incurs a penalty, even if after moving the ball returns to its original position. A couple of examples he gave were how careful the pros are when talking practice swings in the rough - they take their swings far away from the ball to avoid any movement. And the fact that Jack Nicklaus never grounded his club (tho that was not the only reason for his doing so.)

I really do not think that pros make contact with the ball upon address as folk suggest above. I’d love to see a cite to any authority that the practice occurs.

73

Careful guys, the post count on this thread is about to put you over par! :stuck_out_tongue:
(looks like I just did…unless we’re playing the course I played in Maine a few years back that had a Par 6 on it…)

74

The rule seems pretty clear that the ball has not “moved” unless it comes to rest in a different location. That doesn’t mean it’s smart to let the ball move that way, you’re riding the razor’s edge of getting a penalty, and not getting a heck of a lot of benefit in return.

75

So, the folks who say the pros regularly make contact with the ball at address are essentially saying they routinely do something that is not smart and increases the chances of incurring a penalty? Seems quite unlikely to me in light of how meticulously careful they are in other situations, such as marking/replacing on the green, but I’m far from a pro.

76

Yes, in my opinion, that is what they are saying. I don’t agree with it either. I really just wanted to disagree with your buddy about whether or not it was a penalty.

Looks like I’m in a disagreeable mood today. :smiley:

77

Does anyone remember the Monty Thing from 2002 which made pretty clear how the pros avoid “addressing the ball” penalties.

78

Although in that case, there is no question that the ball “moved” - that is, came to rest in a spot other than before. Monty’s insistence in his defense that his putter was 1/2" from the ball, and his intentional coice not to ground the club so as not to “address” it, bolsters my doubt that pros - or other rules following golfers- regularly touch the ball upon address.

79

K364, are you saying that Players (and Pros) touch their ball with their club intentionally or accidentally? I can’t think of a single reason that a player would want to do it on purpose. Why risk it given the consequences?

80

Also this from DSY:
When addressing the ball, the club almost always touches the ball…