That’s all well and good, but iiandyiii was clearly speaking about today “It’s entirely possible (or not – I honestly don’t know) that a larger portion of Muslims subscribe to these kinds of beliefs than Christians and/or Jews.”
Anyone REALLY want to agree with that? Anyone think that TODAY, it’s “entirely possible” that a larger percentage of Christians are homophobic (as per the stuff in the OP) than Muslims?
lets see; the majority of Christianity (and totality of Judaism) practicing countries do not imprison nor execute people for being gay. Not the case with Islam.
progressives need to accept this already and stop apologizing for savage aspects of Islamic culture.
Interesting to note that Nigeria is at 1%, despite being basically 50/50 Muslim and Christian. It’s almost as if there are other factors at play, like where you live.
I think it’s quite likely that American Evangelical Christians (and it’s possible this is true even for American Christians in general) are more homophobic than American Muslims (see Richard Parker’s link), and I imagine that in some countries the reverse is true. Around the world I would guess that more Muslims are homophobic, but I wouldn’t be very confident in my guess. And like RP, I believe that where one lives is probably a lot more instructive about these sorts of attitudes than what religion one claims.
But nobody’s “apologizing for” this or any savage aspects of violent repressive Islamic-extremist cultures.
All we’re doing is refusing to let you get away with lazily and ignorantly equating violent repressive Islamic-extremist cultures with Islam as a whole.
Actually, by this point I think it’s less likely to be mere laziness and ignorance, and more an incorrigible and undiscriminating addiction to liberal-bashing. The only action you liberal-bashers have any real interest in taking in response to a horrifically indefensible crime such as this is to falsely allege that liberals are trying to defend it.
Your point is well taken. But it only goes so far.
If we’re talking about global economic policy, say: then perhaps the West should be more sensitive to our Imperial history. We should not expect nations that we have screwed over to trust us to care about their best interests as nations.
But I’m not going to sit back and wring my hands about the misdeeds of my evil ancestors, and thus fail to oppose evil social ideology in the world today, whether it’s under the banner of Islam, fundamentalist Christianity, or anything else. Most of the victims of misogyny, of murderous bigotry against homosexuals and apostates - are Muslims themselves. If I bear some form of collective responsibility for such evil by virtue of being a Westerner, shouldn’t this make me even more determined to oppose it?
The straw liberal you’re fighting, who doesn’t think we should oppose violent Muslim bigots, doesn’t exist. That’s Kimstu’s whole point.
I think that you are being equally lazy in the use of the term Islam as a whole. Are you talking about people or ideas? I think you are deliberately conflating them, and this is precisely the Islamophobia gambit.
If you mean All Muslim People - then of course that is a straw man. Or, to the extent it’s not, of course anyone who asserts that all Muslims are evil bigots really is both a racist and an idiot.
However, All Islamic Ideology is another question. In post #95 I cited three tenets that, for me, would be a minimum for a morally acceptable form of Islamic ideology. Does such a thing exist?
To the extent that all Islamic ideology that I’m aware of in the world today espouses the diametric opposite of these principles, so far as I’m concerned all current Islamic ideology consists of morally bankrupt bad ideas. I would be delighted to have my ignorance fought and shown that there is a major moderate emerging Islamic ideology out there that consists of something with a more solid foundation than good Muslim people simply ignoring the more barbaric tenets or their espoused faith.
Talk about cherry-picking the data. Let’s divide Christians into about 20 different denominations, and then lump all Muslims into 1 group.
If you are looking for reasons why people in Muslim countries are less receptive to arguments against homophobic bigotry than in Western European countries, you should take into account the history of the last 250 years that is the context in which similar conversations – particularly on women’s rights – have taken place.
Some thoughts –
When you have someone explicitly using your barbarism as an excuse to subjugate you, and then they end up treating you or your family like crap, it shouldn’t be so surprising to see you double down.
When some people in your society argue that secularism and modernity and tolerance are needed to progress, but then they get power and become corrupt, torturing dictators, it doesn’t help you see those things in a good light.
When those same dictators crush leftist opposition but leave religion as a space with limited freedom because they think they can control it, it helps opposition focus itself around religion. It further makes that religious opposition more opposed to the ‘tolerant, moderate’ religion favored by the government.
Like I said, there are productive and unproductive approaches. History has shown us many unproductive ones already, so repeating them would be ill-advised.
Of course, it’s a bit odd to make homophobia be a remnant of barbaric society when ideas of sexual/gender identity and attitudes have varied so much within and across religions, nations, historical periods. Granted, you can argue that sources in Islamic texts and traditions have been far too readily mobilized for current homophobic violence. But then we must ask, why are those sources being prioritized now over others? What can we do differently in order to get the outcomes we want?
Even if you maintain your conclusion that Islam as a system of thought or identity is just unsalvageable, you still have to figure out how to advance that view in a way that is actually effective and also, in line with your values, does not oppress people.
To the extent that Islam plays a role anywhere, it’s not because it’s a religion (whatever that is), it’s because it is Islam. And it is Islams – plural – that are not static, but in conversation with everything that’s happening in their societies and their histories.
I really did try to be understanding, you know.
In any case, I am not Muslim, I just meant that I know you live in Canada and are not, for example, a closeted gay teen from a Muslim family.
I actually have some friends involved in the ex-Muslim community and have interacted a lot with them, and many of them include LBGTQ. A lot of them are extremely hurt and angry, and in real fear. They need a safe place and I can understand if they don’t want to hear about the impacts of the 19th century creation of the term “world religions” or the complexity of historical Islamic traditions.
There are also politicians, like President Obama, who have to make statements that lack nuance (like “ISIS has nothing to do with Islam”) because their position does not afford them the luxury of being nuanced.
We are people on a message board, and I assume not in immediate danger, and so we can take a deep breath and talk this stuff out.
You’d think that people who don’t believe in a religion would be more open to that religion having multiple ways of expressing itself.
Since I posted the link, I’ll take the opportunity to defend it.
Your criticism is misguided. You seem to assume that if white evangelicals weren’t pulled out as a separate group that it would somehow be less flattering to Muslims. But they constitute the second largest plurality–by a lot–after Catholics. So the end result may well have shown rough parity between American Muslims and American Christians. Second, disaggregating the Muslims may also paint them in a better light, by showing that opposition was higher among Muslims from MENA.
In any event, among the points I was making there is that there is pretty significant divergence in homophobia that seems to have little to do with religious doctrine. Can you point to a doctrinal reason why Catholics and White Evangelicals disagree about marriage equality? If not, might not the same cultural and geographic factors that lead to the divergence also apply to Islam?
You know,Richard, you are one of those apologists who twist and turn the statistics and disaggregate this and recompare this group with that group until I am ready to believe that Muslim countries are not homophobic. How many fingers do you see, Winston? Two or three?
Now you just have to prove to me that the photos of gays hanging from cranes in Iran (Shia Muslim by the way) are trick photography and we can conclude that there is no difference between Islam and the west when it comes to gays.
A tour de force of poor reading comprehension, Valteron. I mean, not just that you so managed to completely misunderstand the point, but also your ability to ignore my other posts that could have helped you avoid that embarrassment of a post. Bravo, sir. Bravo.
anyone who tries to blame “western imperialism” for Islamist savagery, is probably a communist. I’ve heard that argument from leftists too many times.
So you have proven that Islamic homophobe bigotry is not spread evenly throughout the world. I never claimed it was.
Oh, I guess you have also proven that western tolerance and acceptance of gays is not spread evenly in every part of the world. I never claimed it was, either.
The answer is the guy did open a gay-friendly mosque that is basically hidden in a Buddhist temple which also answers the security question. It’s pretty much in hiding. The guy who established it is now living in South Africa? So is it still open? Out of all the mosques and Muslims in Europe I know of only one gay-friendly mosque, hidden, and its imam is now living in South Africa and now I’m not sure if that single gay-friendly mosque still exists.
Yes, the dearth of gay-tolerant mosques and the attitudes of the greater Muslim community speaks directly to how homophobic Islam is. What other Paris imams think is totally relevant.
Call it what you want, there aren’t very many of them.
One reform mosque. So? There were2106 mosques in the US as of 2010, there is apparently an on-going mosque building boom so by now there could be 3000 mosques in the US and a single one is gay-friendly and it was started by a former Baptist.
Glad to see you’re getting slightly closer to my point, but you’re not quite there yet. I encourage you to continue your journey though, you’re doing great. In fact, you’re doing so great, I’ll give you some further direction (beyond, you know, just asking you to re-read my posts without whatever lense you cannot help applying to them):
[ul]
[li]There are way more Muslims homophobes in the world, proportionally, than Christian ones[/li]
[li]There is more religiously-motivated violence on the part of Muslims, proportionally, than from Christians[/li]
[li]Some of this homophobia and religious violence results from Islamic teachings and the history of the Muslim world.[/li][/ul]
Now, I assume you’ll praise me for speaking truth to those terrible liberals who disagree, right? Am I your Sam Harris now? At least your Bill Maher? No?
Naturally I was joking about Muslims knowing where I live, but it went over your head, apparently. I live in Canada, and while we are not a big country, there ARE 35 million of us spread over 6 time zones.
But then again, I would genuinely be scared if Muslims knew my real address. Look at what happens to so-called “blasphemers” (i.e. secularists and atheists) in Bangla Desh.
Blaming Islam for the shootings is somewhat comparable to blaming guns for the shooting.
The shooter is to blame for the shootings.
