Should Homophobe Muslims in the west realize that diversity and respect run both ways?

At what point are gays in the west allowed to react to Islamic homophobia in their own western democracies? At what point can we ask the growing, increasingly militant and assertive Muslim communities in our countries to realize that diversity and respect are a two-way street?

As the following article shows http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24036301-fury-at-ken-livingstone-allys-drag-queens-ban.do the Mayor of Tower Hamlets, a heavily Muslim borough of greater London, is now hassling a gay bar in the area that has been there for decades. The Mayor is Lutfur Rahman, who was ousted from the Labour Party because of his links to the hardline Islamic Forum of Europe.

This is the same area where British gays are frequently warned not to trespass and beaten up if they do. Some 47 homophobic attacks were recorded in the area in a 12-month period. Indeed, in most European cities like Amsterdam, Paris and Berlin, that have growing Muslim communities and large gay communities, gay people are increasingly apprehensive of the Muslim gangs who go queer-bashing.

It is bad enough that Muslim countries criminalize gays (five of them have the death penalty, many others stone, lash or imprison.) Other Muslim countries where homosexuality is not illegal per se have high rates of “honour” killings or gays who “hang themselves” in their jail cells after the family slips the jailer a few dollars.
I know Muslim countries are not alone in persecuting gays (how many times will I have to repeat this in the course of this thread?). But it is a fact well known to gay rights groups worldwide that Muslim countries are among the most violent, murderously homophobic of a bad lot.

Fine. As a gay person I would never set foot in a Muslim country. I have enough sense to stay away. But when that same homophobic ideology that is Islam arrives in democratic countries and begins to impose its hatred on me, at what point am I allowed to push back without being called a bigot or (incomprehensibly) a “racist”?
Here are just a few examples of outrages against gays NOT in Muslim countries but in western democracies. In reading these, try to imagine what gays would be called who did something equivalent to Muslims in our society.

Belgium, 2009: a Moroccan Muslim faith healer who was called by parents to ‘treat’ their 18 year-old lesbian daughter is arrested over her burning death.

India, 2009: Islam battles decriminalization of homosexuality. Muslim leaders say “Homosexuality is offence under Sharia Law and haram in Islam,” To India’s credit, homosexuality is now decriminalized in that country.

Toronto, Canada, 2010: Gay mayoral candidate George Smitherman is the target of smear flyers asking “Should Muslims vote for him who married a man?”

France, 2009: French Muslim soccer team refuses to play against a team which promotes homosexual rights and has gay players.

United Kingdom, 2009: At City University London, the Islamic Society hosts a fundamentalist preacher, Abu Usamah, who advocates the murder of gay people.
United Kingdom, October, 2006: Muslims comprise just 2% of the total British population, yet they commit 25% of all anti-homosexual crimes, according to a report by reuters.

And here is my all-time favourite, from the good old USA:

January 30, 2011, New York: The new imam at the Ground Zero mosque (the poster boy for moderate Islam) believes people who are gay were probably abused as children and that people who leave Islam and preach a new religion should be jailed. (Child abuse? You mean like 9-year-old Alisha being deflowered by 56-year-old Mohammed, a fact fully admitted by Islam? But I digress!)

But when it comes to hypocrisy the first prize of 72 virgins in Paradise goes to the ground zero mosque organizers in New York who in August of 2010 complained that a planned gay bar next to the mega-mosque was insensitive !!!

As a gay person who has fought all his life for what we have achieved, at what point can I start pushing back against Islamic homophobia in my own democratic country without being called a bigot?

Why are you link-o-phobic regarding the timeline events you posted at the end of your OP?

Oh, to answer your question, you can start pushing back right now and we won’t call you a bigot. Somehow I think your safe in your own democratic country when you criticize Islamic homophobia. Have you been persecuted for doing so?

I didn’t read any of your OP. I just want to point out that the using the phrase “homophobe(ic)” isn’t a very good way to win any converts. Or start a thread.

Valteron, you started out so well. You had an actual observation about current events and provided an actual thesis to debate. Then, of course, you had to go ramble off into another rant.

For now, I will let this thread stay in Great Debates, but if you wander into the realm of invective, again, I will move it to The BBQ Pit.

And John Mace is correct: if you are going to make a lot of claims/accusation, it would be well to provide citations so that we may examine the evidence to be sure that you are not simply spinning the stories the way that ou want them believed.

[ /Moderating ]

I was unaware that it was impossible to criticize Muslims who engaged in homophobia without being called a bigot.

What’s next. Am I going to told you can’t criticize Barack Obama or claim OJ Simpson murdered his wife without being called a bigot?

As to the question: I see no reason why gays should not engage Muslims or Christians or anyone else to assert their rights or to defend themselves against false charges.

When will you not be called a bigot? Well, I will not call you a bigot on those occasions when you express yourself without demonstrating bigotry, so that should not be a problem.

If you’re claiming that OJ murdered Mrs Obama, then bigotry is the least of your problems

And not reading a thread or noticing that a title correction was made almost immediately is no way to contribute to one, either.

I think you are allowed to react to Islamic homophobia in any manner you see fit, but they are allowed to react to your reaction in kind. Be ready for this fight if you take it on(and I believe you should.)

It absolutely possible. However you are perhaps unaware of Valteron’s posting history.

To the title of the OP: yes I totally agree they should.

To the rest of the OP: yes all that stuff’s bad. With a broad brush, Muslim attitudes to homosexuality are illiberal at best and murderous at worst. Provide cites that liberalisation of attitudes towards homosexuality are worsening in countries with Muslim minorities, and not the other way around (e.g. UK - civil partnerships recently legalised, India - homosexuality recently legalised). I also presume what’s currently going on in Christian African countries, e.g. Uganda, isn’t bad enough to prompt you to start a thread about it at the moment.

I will also note that use of the term “ground zero mosque” poisons the well.

(Sighs loudly!) Now I have to hunt down every reference for you? Many of the articles I quote are from a file of mine which contains clippings (remember paper?). I think you can access some electronically.

The one about the Mayorality Race in Toronto is from “Toronto mayoral campaign ends on a hateful note” by Kelly Grant and Anna Mehler Paperny, The Globe and Mail, October 24, 2010. Trouble is the Globe and Mail is cheap and if you try to access that article electronically you get this page: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/subscribe.jsp?art=1770805 Sorry, but I am not going to subscribe to the Globe and Mail’s site for your sake. Any gay rights group in Canada remembers this hateful story.

The story about the French Soccer Team is available right here: Reuters | Breaking International News & Views

The story about Muslim opposition to the decriminalization of homosexuality in India can be found in the Times of India at http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2009-07-01/india/28209224_1_muslim-leaders-controversial-section-maulana-jalaluddin-omari

The facts about Muslims being responsible for a disporportionate level of anti-gay crimes can be found at a number of places and in a number of studies, but try Little Green Footballs

Information on the Ground Zero Mosque can be found at Outrageous teachings by new GZ mosque big

This is about all the time I can waste being your search engine, frankly.

If you don’t believe that gays get regularly attacked by gay-bashing Muslim gangs, contact any gay org in a major European City. I personally learned about the situation in Berlin when I was studying there in 2009. As my German friends told me, they have pictures and testimony of badly assaulted gay men who are certain their attackers were Muslim gangs, but any attempt to introduce this fact into police or newspaper reports is quickly hushed up in the name of political correctness. After all, with the Holocaust and all, Germans are terrified of saying anything that might be deemed “racist” even though Islam is not a race.

Ironic, isn’t it? The same Muslims who want to erase Israel, (the tiny and democratic Jewish State that respects the rights of gays), get to benefit from the guilt of Germans for the anti-semitic horrors of their grandfathers. And any German gay organization that points out that many of their freinds and spouses have had the shit kicked out of them by homophobic Muslims are automatically accused of “racism”.

If you want to fight back do it on your level, not theirs: stop referring to the “Ground Zero Mosque”.

First of all, to the people responding to the OP, I’m surprised at the negative reception. I didn’t go reading other posts by Valteron - is there a pattern there that people are responding to?

Tomndeb, what is “Then, of course, you had to go ramble off into another rant” referring to? If it’s to “72 virgins in Paradise” and the “But I digress”, well, those few words were perhaps excessive, but the rest of the post seems to me carefully and dutifully done, and the things reported would understandably inspire some invective. Is that what gets this thread threatened with moving to the Pit?

For what it’s worth, the “United Kingdom, 2009” and “Toronto, Canada, 2010” and “United Kingdom, October, 2006” items had some details that were pretty easy to search on, and the first few hits I got on each seemed to say the same thing Valteron does. Links are nice, sure, but why suggest anybody is “simply spinning the stories the way that ou want them believed”?

Now, in answer to the OP, I think Muslims (and everybody else) should realize diversity and respect run both ways. We might say that members of a certain religion believe certain things, without ourselves being bigots, given that religiosity is actually defined by belief. The second sentence of the Wikipedia article “islam and sexual orientation” says “The mainstream interpretation of Qur’anic verses and hadith condemn homosexuality and cross-dressing.” The 2% and 25% item Valteron mentions checks out as true. And I know that legal treatment of gay people in many Islamic countries is cruel in the extreme. Certainly there is a real problem here. I think there’s a legitimate debate about how to go about handling this, and I would have a hard time accepting a “bigotry” charge just on the basis of trying to handle this problem.

P.S. - the links suddenly appeared while I was replying.

The answer to the problem is to somehow get to a stage where racism is not accepted but in a rational manner. As it is we’ve all been so conditioned against racism that some people even consider the word “Jew” derogatory. We have words that you can’t say in most company, in any context, without people assuming you’re racist. When we’ve managed to calm down we’ll be able to make statements such as “there is a big problem of homophobia among Muslims” without the automatic assumption that we’re being intolerant.

That said, I think most intelligent people in the west realize there have been many examples of culture clashes involving Muslims and so can accept that you do have a point.

Well, Napier, you may notice that sending my threads to the Pit is something Tonndeb has been known to do with what seems to me very slight justification.

The main effect of sending me to the Pit is that my opponents are then free to yell and scream invective at me instead of using reasonable arguments.

And you wonder why your threads get booted out of GD? That’s why.

Look. No one on this MB is going to defend Islamic homophobia. I’m not sure why you think you’re taking some courageous stand against it here.

The most common argument that emerge when I criticize Muslim homophobia is in fact a red herring:

It is:

But other religions (or non-Muslim countries like Uganda) do it to!

Do WHAT? We are talking about two completely different situations. The Uganda “Kill the Gays Bill” has still not been passed, under international pressure. And guess who one of the people condemning the Ugandan bill was? The POPE for goodness’ sake!

So what does it tell you when a religious leader who is arguably one of the most conservative of all the mainstream Christian leaders comes out against a bill to kill gays? In the “Christian” west, 10 countries and a number of US states now have completely equal marriage for gays. Executing gays in the West is condoned by the Ku Klux Klan, Fred Phelps’ bunch and a few others outside the mainstream.

In Muslim countries, executing, stoning or otherwise torturing gays IS a mainsteam opinion!

I still can’t see what the debate is here. Who, other than a few nuts like the ones you mention, is saying you can’t criticize anti-gay Islamic teachings and repressive treatment of gays in Islamic countries? Who, exactly, is suppressing your ability to express outrage? And if all you want is to express outrage, why pretend this is a debate?

The point of my OP was not that I am being personally prevented from decrying Muslim homophobia.

But how many politicians would have the guts to do so?

How often does any official have the balls to say that the Muslim attitude to gays is barbaric and indefensible?

Do you realize that the number of people in North America who seriously believe I should be killed is growing every day, and most of that growth is in Muslim communities?

And where are the Muslims in this debate? Is there not one or two who participate in Straight Dope?

My guess is that all of it passes in silence because 1) Islam benefits from the protection against criticism accorded tacitly to most religions (when it is in fact an ideology more than a religion) and 2) Most Muslims are kinda brown or black, making people afraid that criticism of Islam might be racism.

Changing homophobic attitudes among Muslims is no easy task, even (or especially) in the West. I am not well-versed on this topic, though I would imagine that an extremely important avenue of maintaining legitimacy while criticizing Islam in this area is to protect and promote gays who are Muslim or come from traditionally Muslim areas. I believe there are a few queer Muslim organizations in Canada, though I don’t know how active they are.

One is http://salaamcanada.com/

They have an email there for a Toronto chapter.

I found this article in the Jakarta Post about the subject, and found it to be interesting.
www.thejakartapost.com/.../islam-039recognizes-homosexuality039.