Does Israel really need US support?

[Malthus]

@RTFirefly

Which makes Israel’s treatment of Gaza all the more immoral.

Does not compute.

A group of armed fanatics wishes to do you harm out of religious convictions. You impose a blockade to prevent them from getting weapons and attempt to prevent them from infiltrating your borders. And you are the bad guy?

Especially when the terms are set by an Egypt-Israel agreement, and Israel continues to maintain a naval blockade of Gaza’s sea access. (See your own link.)

Still not understanding your point. Are you seriously arguing that Israel controls what Egypt is doing?

Egypt opens and closes its borders as it sees fit. At times, it opens the borders and Gazans are free to flock into Egypt if they want.

The notion that Israel is “caging” them is simply not factual.

[alphaboi867]

@Malthus

…The secular majority deals with this by ‘work-arounds’ - huge gaping loopholes that, in effect, allow Israelis to have a purely secular marriage if they want to…The main “work-around” is to vacation on Cyprus and get married there. Cyprus is very easy for Israelis to get to, and has made a mini industry of hosting Israeli marriages. The Israeli state makes it easy, as marriages performed outside of Israel are considered fully valid in Israel. If Israelis don’t want to travel, they use Paraguay, which allows marriages at the consulate in Tel Aviv…

IIRC even secular Israelis who marry abroad have to turn to religious courts if they want a divorce.

[jtur88]

If I ask you Why do people hate you, and you say Because they are a bunch of mindless fanatics, it indicates to me that you haven’t really thought it through very well.

[Scumpup]

No, I don’t think they need US support. I’m good with cutting them loose.

[runningdude]

@astro

…
When called on this the Israeli response is typically “Everyone hates us and wants to kills us so shove your tolerance where the sun doesn’t shine”. And in fairness a good chunk of Islamic attitudes in the surrounding region would be happy to eliminate Israel if they had the means.

It’s interesting to consider whether withdrawing US support would make Israel less belligerent and racist or more belligerent and racist in it’s attitudes. I think without US support they would have to try harder to reach an accommodation with their own Arabs and their neighbors and this would benefit everyone.

Every few years, Hamas starts firing rockets into Israel. Israel, in response, intercepts the rockets, and fires its own at Hamas’ stockpiles. (Of course, Hamas stores its weapons in schools and hospitals, making Israel look like an ass for blowing up schools and hospitals.)

I don’t see how withdrawing American support could help Israel become less belligerent. The people who need to withdraw are the ones who are firing the rockets.

[Balou]

@adaher

It’s only equivalent of Israeli Arabs are denied the same rights as Israeli Jews to an extent at least equivalent to Jim Crow in the US. Palestinians, on the other hand, are not only not Israeli citizens, they don’t want to be, so do not have the same rights. It would be like saying that the US practices apartheid towards Puerto Ricans because they don’t have the right to vote.

And if the US occupied Puerto Rico, controlled their borders, practised intimidation, and restricted economic movement and freedom of expression. Oh, and started building houses on Puerto Rican land.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/08/israel-soldiers-speak-out-brutality-palestine-occupation

[Urbanredneck]

Like others have said I think that witout US support Isreal would be forced to take the gloves off and go in and literally wipe their enemies off the map like their ancestors did when they conquewred the area in the first place.

[Malthus]

@jtur88

If I ask you Why do people hate you, and you say Because they are a bunch of mindless fanatics, it indicates to me that you haven’t really thought it through very well.

You don’t think true fanatics really exist?

Don’t believe me - read the Hamas Charter for yourself and report back on your impressions.

Hamas on the subject of what to do with Jews:

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Hamas on the subject of making peace with Israel:

Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:

Article Thirteen:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. “Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know.”

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

“But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah.” (The Cow - verse 120).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

“The people of Syria are Allah’s lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation.”

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

What do you think? Are these guys fanatics or not?

[Malthus]

@alphaboi867

IIRC even secular Israelis who marry abroad have to turn to religious courts if they want a divorce.

This must pose some interesting problems for religious courts, as Israel recognizes same-sex marriages performed abroad as well - and the religious types loath the very thought of it.

Recognition of same-sex unions in Israel

Would this make them more, or less, willing to grant a divorce for a gay couple?

[sparky_1]

@astro

I suspect Israel could support itself based on it’s technological and industrial skills like some smaller high skill European counties. Without US aid I’m not sure they could keep supporting the population of non-working orthodox families that currently live off public assistance.

From my outsiders perspective Israel (based on what I have read in the media) does not seem to treat the Arab portion of their demographic very well and a lot of Israelis come off as aggressively racist in their attitudes toward Arabs. I think US political support and protection has given them a shield and something of a pass for engaging in this behavior as an advanced industrialized nation.

When called on this the Israeli response is typically “Everyone hates us and wants to kills us so shove your tolerance where the sun doesn’t shine”. And in fairness a good chunk of Islamic attitudes in the surrounding region would be happy to eliminate Israel if they had the means.

It’s interesting to consider whether withdrawing US support would make Israel less belligerent and racist or more belligerent and racist in it’s attitudes. I think without US support they would have to try harder to reach an accommodation with their own Arabs and their neighbors and this would benefit everyone.

It’s so strange to see in the media.

I lived in Israel for 3 months and saw no racist attitude at all. In fact, I didn’t see any evidence of the conflicts we Americans see everyday on the evening news.

Instead I saw Jews and Arabs just living life and trying to get by and raise families.

Our media does a good job blowing things out of proportion. Of course, this was 2 years ago. The current conflict in Gaza is very real. Still, it’s like a few bad apples spoiling it for everyone.

I think Israel could survive without US involvement. however, there’d probably be a difficult transition.

[Tom_Tildrum]

@astro

It’s interesting to consider whether withdrawing US support would make Israel less belligerent and racist or more belligerent and racist in it’s attitudes. I think without US support they would have to try harder to reach an accommodation with their own Arabs and their neighbors and this would benefit everyone.

Flip the question to the other side, though. If the US were to withdraw the ~$500 million in annual support that it provides to the Palestinian Authority, would that move the Palestinian cause toward moderation or away from it? And if one concludes that US funding is a moderating influence on the PA, why would the answer differ as to Israel?