Why should they be believed ? They lied to support the Iraq war, why not a new one ?
Just because a fool says the sun is up doesn’t mean that it is night. Ad hominems don’t win arguments.
False comparison. When someone previously caught in a lie or egregious error says that they have secret information that happens to “prove” their position, believing them is stupid. “Don’t trust a liar” isn’t “Ad hominem”, it’s simply good advice.
Especially when “We have secret info that proves us right” is EXACTLY one of the claims made in the run up to the Iraq war. Which was a lie.
My bad, really. When I asked for evidence, I didn’t realize how embarrasingly weak your evidence was. Hell, I would have been reluctant too!
So, sorry about that.
Perhaps it would help if you gave an example of the kind of evidence you would find acceptable. I’m not sure it could get much better than what **Ravenman **has given. Everything is going to be filtered through the military, unless some intrepid reporter embeds himself with Iranian smugglers or the Iranian government issues a proclamation that it is their policy to supply certain Iraqi factions with weapons.
You’re likely right about that, but simply because one presents the best evidence available doesn’t make that evidence any stronger.
A self narrated video tape of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad firing a round into the green zone wouldn’t be good enough. You’ve provided the always requested cite and it hasn’t been properly challenged besides a smartass remark. it’s best to just move on.
I fail to see the relevance of any of these points. Why is it necessary for either party in this to take into consideration the likelihood or otherwise of a hypthetical US/Iran war?
For certain elements in Iran, hostility to the US is pretty much their raison d’etre. Nothing gets people to line up together like a foreign enemy. Stirring the pot in Iraq and keeping the venom alive in their relations with the US and Israel is good for their profile and for distracting their domestic opponents, at least for now. Whether or not the US would ever attack is a worry for another day - better to be a player in a shaky theocracy than a nobody, after all.
Similarly for certain elements within the US, Iran is one of the few countries that still has the requisite dog-whistle effect for rallying supporters to The Great War On Terror. Pretty much the only thing that the leadership of US and Iran have in common is a joint interest in keeping their mutual loathing at the top of the news agenda. Whether or not anyone is actually being killed in the green zone, or where the weapons come from, or who is actually using them, is pretty much irrelevant. Even if they were US-made shells being fired by a Saudi-sponsored Sunni militia, it would still be in the interests of both sides to make out that Iran was involved.
It wasn’t me, it was Ravenman.
I’ve been mostly observing in this thread and am not really interested in that exchange as it’s outside the actual thread topic. This thread is supposed to be about whether or not it makes sense that Iran would want to meddle in Iraq, not whether they actually are. Of course, if you prove they are, then that means it does make sense. But one needn’t prove that part to address the OP’s question.
I’m not really sure one way or the other whether Iran is involved, but I don’t just dismiss anything from the military out of hand. However, I can see no reason why Iran wouldn’t want to get involved, if it could. We do the same thing all over the world.
I regard this “did they/didn’t they” question as a coup for the Iranians. For myself, I have no real doubt that Iranian munitions are being supplied, with at least the tacit connivance of the Iranian government. But the question of who the munitions are going to and who is sponsoring the shipments is kept murky. The Iranians get to eat their cake, and have it, too. They get to provoke the Americans without incurring any real danger. They get to build street cred with various factions in the Middle East. They gain influence with key groups in Iraq. In short, their status as a player is cemented, at little cost to themselves.
Seems to me they’ve played a very successful game here.
Are you people suggesting Iran wants to go to war with the US. ? If they are guilty of suppling arms that is a risk. They can sit patiently and watch the Iraqi fiasco implode.
We supplied the Afghanistan fighters against Russia,. Did Russia declare war on us for that.? Apparently that would have been justified by this thought process.?
Who is suggesting this? Can you point to a quote…?
Isn’t this kind of a contradiction to your first sentence? What are you on about?
No idea what you are babbling about. Let me see if I can follow the logic. The US supplied the rebels in Afghanistan with weapons so clearly the Iranian’s are not supplying the Iraqi’s with weapons because the Soviet Union didn’t declare war on the US…oh, and the Iranian’s can just sit back and watch Iraq implode. And there must be a pony in there as well somewhere…
Does that about cover it?
-XT
I believe friend Gonzo means to point out that there is a certain rancid hypocrisy on our part in all of this. Rather simple, really.
Ah…he was pointing out that water is wet? I see. I guess it was clear to you…I certainly didn’t get that out of it. Well, both are as relevant to the actual question asked in the OP as anything I guess…
Was there a pony involved?
-XT
We can do it. They can not. We do it. It is good. They act in their interests ,they are bad. It is hypocrisy. Really xt is that too hard to follow for you?
So…you seem to be admitting that it DOES make sense that Iran is behind the shelling in the Green Zone. Glad we cleared that up…
-XT
IED’s are just scary initials for roadside bombs. The Norwegian resistance in WW2 were making shaped charge IED’s. All it takes is explosives (helpfully provided by our failure to secure arms dumps etc) and a machine shop. And even if they are - as people here have said - they have a hostile, aggressive imperial power on their borders, - what else do we expect them to do but join in the real-politick game?
Judging from the size of the cone in this picture it looks like it also takes a few thousand bucks worth of copper.
The object on the picture is the body of the shaped charge, the explosives are placed inside it and a disc of copper used as a lid. The whole thing is not made entirely out of copper.
Ahh, it looked like an awfully heavy hunk of metal to get vaporized.