Does Judaism require a belief in God [Split from earlier thread]

[UDS]

@CitizenPained

On the contrary. I think you confuse us with your Christianity. In case you forgot, the schism between Jews and Nazarenes was the Christian belief that the Mosaic law (including kosher!) no longer applied.

Here’s a nice bit about cleaving to God: . . ..

I’m happy to have my ignorance fought by someone with greater knowledge than mine. But what you say is not inconsistent with what I thought I was trying, perhaps ineptly, to say.

As I understand it, keeping the Law is not a means to an end, the end being knowledge of God, enlightenment or something of the kind. Keeping the Law is not right because of some end outside of itself but rather because it is inherently right. In the present context, keeping the Law does not teach us to love God; it is loving God.

Is that correct?

[SecondJudith]

Haven’t we had a thread on this in the past year or so? Not that it isn’t always worth clarifying, mind (the answer is “No, it doesn’t”).

[FinnAgain]

@brazil84

Are you sure of this? How would you interpret the very first of Maimonides’ famous 613 mitzvot?

The problem is that this is essentially the same as a non-Christian person trying to tell Christians what their religion is, and citing passages from Leviticus in order to ‘prove’ how wrong their local church/sect/whatever is. It doesn’t work like that, though.

Jews have decided what Judaism is. It’s backed up by several very large sects’ religious and lay leadership as well as their member base. Faith is unimportant. Atheist Jews are welcome. You don’t have to agree with it, you don’t have to particularly think it’s a good idea, but trying to reason your way around it, let alone prove it wrong, is a rabbit trail. It is what it is. You can be a religious Jew and not believe in God. And it is because we say it is.

~shrugs~

[brazil84]

@FinnAgain

. And it is because we say it is.

That may be so, but I think you need to provide some cites for your claim. An anonymous person on the internet who claims to speak for all Jews is not very authoritative.

Also, Judaism is enough of a thinking man’s religion that surely there have been rabbis who have tried to reconcile the first Mitzvah with the idea that you don’t actually need to believe. I would like to know what their reasoning is.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@CitizenPained

I get that you can be a good person without believing in God. What I’m not seeing is how you can say you are following all of the commands, when some of them make no sense without belief. How can you love God with all your heart and soul if you don’t even believe in him?

Most of those Jews turn and follow another stream. Or are just rejected entirely.

Ask Baruch Spinoza.

I’m not sure Spinoza would’ve said he was following another stream; I think he would’ve said, with a straight face, that he did thoroughly love God. Albert Einstein probably would’ve done likewise, with his oft-repeated quote: “The beginnings of cosmic religious feeling already appear at an early stage of development, e.g., in many of the Psalms of David and in some of the Prophets. Buddhism, as we have learned especially from the wonderful writings of Schopenhauer, contains a much stronger element of this. The religious geniuses of all ages have been distinguished by this kind of religious feeling, which knows no dogma and no God conceived in man’s image; so that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it. Hence it is precisely among the heretics of every age that we find men who were filled with this highest kind of religious feeling and were in many cases regarded by their contemporaries as atheists, sometimes also as saints. Looked at in this light, men like Democritus, Francis of Assisi, and Spinoza are closely akin to one another … Science has therefore been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death.”

(Or, to get back on point: “I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God.”)

[FinnAgain]

@brazil84

An anonymous person on the internet who claims to speak for all Jews is not very authoritative.

The poverty of your argument should become readily apparent when it’s reduced to such absurd strawmen. Claiming that I’ve ever hinted, let alone stated, that I speak for “all Jews” is more than a little counterproductive to honest debate.

@brazil84

That may be so, but I think you need to provide some cites for your claim.

I really don’t. You need to provide cites showing that any of the major Jewish sects rejects membership for and/or actively expels members who don’t believe in God. That is, after all, the practical ramification of your claim. It’s not my job to argue cite why you’re wrong, it’s yours to cite why you’re right. *That the best cite, if you can call it that, relies on an interpretation of Judaism that’s eight centuries out of date, shows you certainly haven’t carried the burden of proof yet. *

I can also point out that I have the experience of the rabbis I’ve spoken with and studied with, the communities I’ve lived in, and the other Jews I’ve talked with, and you have an outsider’s understanding of something that you are using to try to score points and argue a conclusion that you seem to have already come to. But okay… Reconstructionist doctrine is fairly flexible on the matter, and they tend to allow their membership to come up with their own understanding and definition of anything divine. This is not an unusual way for them to state their beliefs:

[

When we say we believe in God, we are really saying that we believe that people can be good, caring, and loving, and that they can care about things that are bigger than themselves.

Do I have to believe in God to be a Jew?
No.

Many people have come to reject God because they understand God as a being that can break the laws of nature and act like a person. Reconstructionism rejects those ideas about God, as have many Jewish philosophers over time. Reconstructionism has offered many people who previously rejected God a renewed possibility of belief as they have been exposed to different conceptions of God. [See question # 1: “Do Reconstructionists believe in God?”]

But some Jews will continue to reject even a reconstructed idea of God. It is possible to feel committed to Jewish values without believing in God. Throughout the ages, God has been the source of the commandment for us to create a just and fair world. But it is certainly possible to feel committed to a better world without connecting the source of that commitment to God.

Reconstructionism has stressed belonging over believing when it comes to Jewish identity. Belonging to a group with common commitments, culture and memories has given us a valuable sense of peoplehood and mission that has power regardless of what we believe about God.

If Reconstructionists don’t believe in a supernatural God who hears and responds to prayer, then what’s the point of praying?
There is more to prayer than asking God for favors. Although people may be surprised to see Reconstructionists praying using traditional descriptions of God and God’s role in the world, prayer has a vital role to play in the life of a Reconstructionist congregation and each Reconstructionist Jew.

The Hebrew word for praying, “l’hitpalel”, is a reflexive verb–that is, it applies to oneself, not to one’s actions toward the outside world. L’hitpalel means to look inside of yourself. This suggests that even when prayers end with God, they begin with us. We don’t know whether prayer can change God. We know that it can often change us.

](http://kehillatisrael.org/about_us_reconstructionism.php?id=117)

Here’s a bit more background:

[

Judaism does not require belief in God as a condition of membership. It’s a paradox with which many theologians and practitioners struggle.

“Judaism teaches us that it’s less about God hearing our prayers then about what we do when we walk out the door,” says Cantor Nathan Lam of the Stephen S. Wise Temple, a large Reform congregation in Los Angeles, who used to run a “doubters’ minyan” for students at the temple’s Milken Community High School.

Maintaining an internal balance between the demands of faith and intellect is part of being a modern Jew, he says. Judaism recognizes that by focusing on the need to perform rituals rather than by looking into the practitioner’s heart, he says. Other Jewish views hold that belief in the heart is required in performing the Torah’s commandments.

[…]

Cantor Ellen Dreskin of Temple Beth El of Northern Westchester in Chappaqua, N.Y., who says she interprets the words in the prayer book “metaphorically and poetically,” not literally.

She says her fellow clergy need to give their congregants permission to do the same.

[…]

The study, which will be conducted by Diane Schuster, a researcher and lecturer at Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion in Los Angeles, will interview Jews who are “in search of a spiritual experience that is deep, meaningful and transformative but that is not linked to religious liturgies or practices that rely on God language or reference to a Supreme Being.”
[…]
The New York-based Jewish Outreach Institute also is reaching out to what it sees as growing numbers of active Jews who don’t believe in a Higher Power. Its national conference in late May will feature a session on how to engage Judaism without God.

“There is a recognition that some people find spiritual sustenance and nurturing through the intellect that is not necessarily tied to anything related to the Divine – that is, to God,” said Rabbi Kerry Olitzky, the institute’s executive director. “We wanted to include this session both to recognize those who access Judaism in this regard and to affirm it as a vehicle for doing so.”

Dreskin is one of several Jewish clergy and educators who suggest that new language may be needed for Jewish prayers to take modern sensibilities into account.

“If there were a need for it in my synagogue, we’d do it,” says Lam of Stephen S. Wise, who adds that he’s not heard such a demand articulated by his congregants.

Other Jewish clergy don’t see the need for such liturgical tweaking.

Rabbi David Wolpe of Sinai Temple, a large Conservative congregation in Los Angeles, says he has “no doubt” that many people in his synagogue say the prayers without believing in God. Even the Bible admonishes against idolatry, but not against atheism, he points out.

](http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/05/11/3087663/jewish-atheists-look-for-their-place-in-jewish-life)

@brazil84

Also, Judaism is enough of a thinking man’s religion that surely there have been rabbis who have tried to reconcile the first Mitzvah with the idea that you don’t actually need to believe.

You are making a common mistake that many gentiles make when they think about Judaism; the opinions of rabbis are nice and all, but it’s not at all a top-down belief system. In many cases it’s the congregation that drives current trends in Judaism, not the leadership. You’re also unnecessarily stuck on a formulation that is almost a millenium old at this point. There’s no need to reconcile it with anything if someone doesn’t choose to grant it undue weight in the first place. Rabbis today are under no more of a special burden to reconcile Rambam’s theology with our modern theology than they are to reconcile the Zohar with our modern theology.

Or if you’d prefer it via a Staff Report:

[

So now let me tackle your question in a different way. On a theological basis, one of the differences between Judaism (as a religion) and Christianity is that belief is extremely important in Christianity. One must BELIEVE to participate in the religion, and that’s about all one need do. Moral behaviour is preferred, of course, but one who behaves immorally but than repents and comes to BELIEVE is forgiven and accepted. Christianity thus modelled itself as a religion for the world, where anyone can join by professing BELIEF.

Belief is almost irrelevant to Judaism. Abraham is not told to BELIEVE in God, but to walk with God. What is important to Judaism is action, not belief. Doing the right things for the wrong reasons is viewed as sinful (or at best, ambiguous) in Christianity; but in Judaism, doing the right things for the wrong reasons still means you’ve done the right things. Thus, being Jewish is not about believing in God, but about doing the right things. (I decline to get into the discussion of what the “right” things are, since different sects of Judaism have different thoughts on this issue.)

Thus, it is not inconsistent for an atheist to be Jewish.

](Can you be an atheist and still be Jewish? - The Straight Dope)

It’s okay if you don’t grok this fact, but trying to argue your way out of it won’t bear any fruit. Atheism and Judaism are compatible, even if someone more than 800 years ago disagreed.

[brazil84]

@FinnAgain

The poverty of your argument should become readily apparent when it’s reduced to such absurd strawmen. Claiming that I’ve ever hinted, let alone stated, that I speak for “all Jews” is more than a little counterproductive to honest debate.

Lol, here’s what you said:

You can be a religious Jew and not believe in God. And it is because we say it is.

Does “we” refers to (religious) Jews or to some other group?

It’s not my job to argue cite why you’re wrong, it’s yours to cite why you’re right.

Nonsense, I’m not claiming that Jews must believe in G-d. I don’t know either way.

major Jewish sects rejects membership for and/or actively expels members who don’t believe

Well do major Jewish sects reject membership and/or actively expel members who engage in theft? For example, Eddie Antar. Do major Jewish sects reject membership and/or actively expel members who do normal work on Saturdays?

(I don’t know the answers to these questions.)

I can also point out that I have the experience of the rabbis I’ve spoken with and studied with, the communities I’ve lived in, and the other Jews I’ve talked with, and you have an outsider’s understanding of something that you are using to try to score points and argue a conclusion that you seem to have already come to.

Why do you assume I am an outsider and why do you assume I have come to any conclusion?

he opinions of rabbis are nice and all, but it’s not at all a top-down belief system. In many cases it’s the congregation that drives current trends in Judaism, not the leadership.

In that case, how can there be any authoritative answer to the question?

[FinnAgain]

@brazil84

Lol

I made it quite clear that I was talking about “several very large sects’ religious and lay leadership as well as their member base.” As a member of one of those sects, I’m quite comfortable using the word “we” to describe shared beliefs without claiming to be speaking for Orthodox congregations, for example.

@brazil84

Nonsense, I’m not claiming that Jews must believe in G-d. I don’t know either way.

Ah, so you’re Just Asking Questions. But no, burden of proof is still on you, even if you’re JAQ’ing. Unless I miss my guess, every single Jew who’s posted in this thread (and the cites I’ve provided) reiterate the basic fact: belief in God is not necessary for membership in the Jewish religious community and active disbelief in not a bar to participation and/or membership therein.

@brazil84

Well do major Jewish sects reject membership and/or actively expel members who engage in theft?

Not an apt comparison at all, for many reasons. But if you’re looking to see what beliefs do place people outside of the tribe, you have to look no further than “Messianic Judaism”. Those who believe in Christian theology are removed from the group. Not so for those who are atheists.

@brazil84

Why do you assume I am an outsider

Because the mistakes you’re making evince a lack of basic knowledge on the subject. As for making claims, the fact that you’re relying on a religious gloss that’s eight centuries out of date and JAQ’ing suggests that if you haven’t come to a conclusion, then at the very least you’re not willing to accept the facts that have been provided to you by the Jews in this thread. I also notice you haven’t changed your tack even after the cites that I provided.

[DSeid]

@UDS

As I understand it, keeping the Law is not a means to an end, the end being knowledge of God, enlightenment or something of the kind. Keeping the Law is not right because of some end outside of itself but rather because it is inherently right…

I think I failed to make my point clear because that really is the point.(Although some will argue that knowing God as a result is the goal of doing what is right.) The emphasis in Judaism is on the doing. If you know God as a result, and perhaps you will, great. But do the right things for the sake of doing the right things. The principal is that Torah is not in heaven; it is in our hands. The understanding is that the world is undone and we have an obligation to work towards perfecting it and that it is doing that work that matters, much more than whether or not you think it was God who left the work incomplete.

[brazil84]

@FinnAgain

I made it quite clear that I was talking about “several very large sects’ religious and lay leadership as well as their member base.” As a member of one of those sects, I’m quite comfortable using the word “we” to describe shared beliefs without claiming to be speaking for Orthodox congregations, for example.

So you make no claim to be speaking about Jews in general, just the general views of your sect?

Ah, so you’re Just Asking Questions.

Yes, is that a problem?

But no, burden of proof is still on you, even if you’re JAQ’ing.

Burden of proving exactly what?

Not an apt comparison at all, for many reasons.

What reasons?

Does Judaism require you to refrain from stealing?

Does Judaism require you to refrain from engaging in ordinary work on Saturdays?

Because the mistakes you’re making evince a lack of basic knowledge on the subject.

Does Judaism require you to have extensive knowledge about Judaism then?

As for making claims, the fact that you’re relying on a religious gloss that’s eight centuries out of date and JAQ’ing suggests that if you haven’t come to a conclusion, then at the very least you’re not willing to accept the facts that have been provided to you by the Jews in this thread.

Well, I’m a bit reluctant to accept facts asserted by anonymous people who vouch for their own authority.

I also notice you haven’t changed your tack even after the cites that I provided.

Should I consider those cites to be from authoritative sources then?

[brocks]

@FinnAgain

You need to provide cites showing that any of the major Jewish sects rejects membership for and/or actively expels members who don’t believe in God.

I haven’t seen anyone claim that. It’s perfectly conceivable that a religious group would welcome people who do not believe, but are willing to do everything in accordance with the rituals, in hopes that they will come to believe. On the other hand, I expect that they would indeed refuse or expel someone who expressed his disbelief with constant heckling during the service.

It’s not my job to argue cite why you’re wrong, it’s yours to cite why you’re right. *That the best cite, if you can call it that, relies on an interpretation of Judaism that’s eight centuries out of date, shows you certainly haven’t carried the burden of proof yet. *

Well, how about this, from your cite: “Other Jewish views hold that belief in the heart is required in performing the Torah’s commandments.”

[SecondJudith]

@brazil84

Should I consider those cites to be from authoritative sources then?

Goodness, if you’re not accepting cites from the official websites of Jewish movements themselves, what will you accepting as a cite? A bat kol?

[John_Mace]

Was there a time in the past when belief in God was essential to being a Jew?

[Farmer_Jane]

@FinnAgain

The problem is that this is essentially the same as a non-Christian person trying to tell Christians what their religion is, and citing passages from Leviticus in order to ‘prove’ how wrong their local church/sect/whatever is. It doesn’t work like that, though.

Jews have decided what Judaism is. It’s backed up by several very large sects’ religious and lay leadership as well as their member base. Faith is unimportant. Atheist Jews are welcome. You don’t have to agree with it, you don’t have to particularly think it’s a good idea, but trying to reason your way around it, let alone prove it wrong, is a rabbit trail. It is what it is. You can be a religious Jew and not believe in God. And it is because we say it is.

~shrugs~

//werd.

@brazil84

That may be so, but I think you need to provide some cites for your claim. An anonymous person on the internet who claims to speak for all Jews is not very authoritative.

No one speaks for *all *Jews. It’s a very pluralistic group. But one thing we do know is that you can be an atheist and be Jewish. You can even practice and be Jewish. Reconstructionism has a whole movement based on the idea.

Also, Judaism is enough of a thinking man’s religion that surely there have been rabbis who have tried to reconcile the first Mitzvah with the idea that you don’t actually need to believe. I would like to know what their reasoning is.

Where are you getting this ‘first mitzvah’ from?

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

I’m not sure Spinoza would’ve said he was following another stream;

I said ‘or…’

[/QUOTE]

@CitizenPained

Most of those Jews turn and follow another stream. Or are just rejected entirely.

Ask Baruch Spinoza.

@brazil84

Lol, here’s what you said:

Nonsense, I’m not claiming that Jews must believe in G-d. I don’t know either way.

We’re telling you. :rolleyes:

Well do major Jewish sects reject membership and/or actively expel members who engage in theft? For example, Eddie Antar. Do major Jewish sects reject membership and/or actively expel members who do normal work on Saturdays?

…no. That would be silly and antithetical.

Why do you assume I am an outsider and why do you assume I have come to any conclusion?

Because you keep trying to tell us what we think.

In that case, how can there be any authoritative answer to the question?

In defining ourselves, we’ve all settled on this idea that all can agree to: what we’re not.

No Jesus, other gods, or other theistic religions.

JewBus OK; Jews turned Christians - no.

[Farmer_Jane]

@John_Mace

Was there a time in the past when belief in God was essential to being a Jew?

Several millennium ago, but that concerned tribal/national membership (eg, Israelite), not Jewishness.

[FinnAgain]

@SecondJudith

Goodness, if you’re not accepting cites from the official websites of Jewish movements themselves, what will you accepting as a cite?

Providing the views of religious leaders and religious organizations evidently doesn’t cut it. I suspect that a large part of the problem is a simple lack of any valid frame of reference here and that **brazil ** is still laboring under some sort of misconception that Jews are like Christians who just believe different things, and we’ve got someone who can speak “with authority” on theological matters.

@brazil84

Does Judaism require you to have extensive knowledge about Judaism then?

Not really in the mood for game-playing, and this absurd JAQ’ing was old hat when Truthers first discovered how to use it. It’s clear that you’re coming to this as an outsider, not accepting the reports from people who’ve grown up in the tradition, not accepting cites from religious organizations and religious leaders, JAQ’ing and now you’re trying to make some strange rhetorical point about whether or not you are, in fact, an easily identifiable outsider. You are. One of the functions that language has served since we first started using it was to differentiate in-group from out-group membership with surprising rapidity.

You don’t have to grok the answers you’ve been given, you don’t even need to accept them, but trying to argue when you don’t even have a suitable frame of reference and evidently want others to give it to you after you’ve started posting… well, it’s not particularly fruitful.

@brocks

I haven’t seen anyone claim that.

Your quibble is not born out by the facts and it contradicted by the cites I’ve provided, to boot. Yes, there are certain beliefs that are deal breakers Judaism, belief in the divinity of Jesus being one of them. Belief that there is no God is not one of them. It’s not a “wait and see” thing, it’s simply totally acceptable. We also do not “wait and see” if Jews for Jesus folks see the light, we just kick 'em out and move on.
So, yes, that is exactly what’s being claimed, that someone the belief in God is required for Judaism just as the disbelief in the divinity of Jesus is required. But it’s not. Atheists are accepted as full members of the religious community, and not with
a secret desire to one day convert them to theism.

As for heckling during a service, they’d kick someone out of the congregation, not declare they weren’t religiously Jewish. They also wouldn’t differentiate if you were heckling about God or grammar.

@brocks

Well, how about this, from your cite: “Other Jewish views hold that belief in the heart is required in performing the Torah’s commandments.”

Only if you’re ignorant of Judaism, I suppose. Two-Jews-three-opinions and all that. Of course there are other Jewish views, there always are. But one performs the mitzvot, they don’t “believe” the mitzvot. I will note that the cherrypicking you had to do to choose that quote is interesting. In an article talking about the prevalence of atheist religious Jews and how even the rabbi at a large conservative synagogue has a significant atheist population that he doesn’t mind since there is no prohibition against atheism, you’ve chosen to focus on one line about how there are divergent views in Judaism.

There are also some Jews who think that Schneerson was the messiah. If you’re not interested so much in what major sects believe but in what opinions are out there, I guarantee you that you can find a Jew for all seasons.

[brazil84]

@SecondJudith

Goodness, if you’re not accepting cites from the official websites of Jewish movements themselves,

I haven’t decided whether or not to accept them. See, there’s a threshold issue here, which is whether any source is authoritative according to Finnagain.

Here’s what he said a few posts back:

opinions of rabbis are nice and all, but it’s not at all a top-down belief system. In many cases it’s the congregation that drives current trends in Judaism, not the leadership.

[brazil84]

@CitizenPained

No one speaks for *all *Jews. It’s a very pluralistic group.

Well is there any kind of consensus on whether Judaism requires you to believe in G-d? If there isn’t, then there is no simple answer to the question. If there is a consensus, then I would like a cite for it.

Where are you getting this ‘first mitzvah’ from?

I did a Google search for “613” and “Mitzvot” I linked to the first few hits a few posts back.

We’re telling you. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, I don’t know who you are so that’s not enough.

. That would be silly and antithetical.

Then what difference does it make whether anyone is expelled for atheism?

Because you keep trying to tell us what we think.

Can you please quote me in two places where I have done so?

[FinnAgain]

@brazil84

I haven’t decided whether or not to accept them.

You’re Just Asking Questions and even when they’re answered, with cites, you’re not quite sure if you want to accept them anyways. And after all, if Judaism doesn’t have a Pope and we wouldn’t be working in a top-down manner even in case we did have some sort of religious Leadership-class, you can pretty much ignore any cites at all.

So cites aren’t good enough for you. Statements from Jews aren’t good enough for you. But there are Questions and you Just have to Ask them.

As stated by me and evinced by you, you lack the basic frame of reference required to even discuss the issue. Your reliance on questions of “authority” proves that. That you’d rather change the topic with glib quips about whether or not deep knowledge of Judaism is required to be a Jew, before you go back to JAQ’ing, shows the quality of your argument.

[brocks]

@FinnAgain

I will note that the cherrypicking you had to do to choose that quote is interesting. In an article talking about the prevalence of atheist religious Jews and how even the rabbi at a large conservative synagogue has a significant atheist population that he doesn’t mind since there is no prohibition against atheism, you’ve chosen to focus on one line about how there are divergent views in Judaism.

I think you were my waiter at lunch the other day. “In a soup full of delicious noodles, you’ve chosen to focus on the one dead fly.”