Jewish Belief and Conversion- Questions on SDSTAFF CKDextHavn's article

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
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From the article:

How does the above quote reconcile with the 1st Commandment:

It seems like the above text commands Jews to believe in God and that He is the Lord who brought them out of bondage. Can one follow this mitzvot without a belief in God? I don’t see how belief can be irrelevant (or almost irrelevant) if the 1st commandment (one of the 613 mitzvot) seems to require belief.

Or do Jews interpret this mitzvot is a way that does not require belief?

I found this on Judaism 101:

It seems that this Jewish website is saying that mitzvot does require belief. So while one does not need belief in anything to be a Jew, one does need belief to follow the mitzvot. Is that wrong?

Also from the article:

I thought that Judaism was tribal religion where if you converted to another religion you are no longer Jewish? For instance one can not be a Hindu and a Jew at the same time. However, since atheism is considered another tribe one is still Jewish because he would not have on another tribe’s God. Is that wrong? If a Jew convert to Hinduism is he really still a Jew?

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjewish.html
http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm

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We actually have a separate Forum to discuss stuff that shows up in Staff Reports.
I’ll move this over there (until someone makes it so contentious that it gets sent back.)

[ /Moderating ]

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I won’t speak for Dex, but I can answer a couple of your questions from my particular Jewish perspective.

Yes, there is a commandment to believe in G-d, but it’s just one of the 613 commandments. Unlike some other religions, in which faith is supreme, Judaism is just as serious about requiring a Jew to keep kosher or Sabbath as it is about requiring belief in G-d. Of course, having belief is useful not only as the fulfillment of the commandment you quoted, but also as a vehicle for adding meaning to your actions and for greater commitment to Judaism.

I’ve heard many Jewish lecturers emphasize how different Judaism is from Protestant Christianity in this respect. Belief is good, but it is only a small part of what is expected of you. You can, in fact, transgress the commandment to believe in G-d and still do most of what is required by the religion, albeit with less focus and devotion. But the emphasis is not on belief in and of itself.

I’m not sure what you mean by a “tribal religion,” but basically, Judaism doesn’t formally recognize other religions. If you’re a Jew and you decide you want to convert to Hinduism, the religion will still consider you Jewish, and nothing else. Your status as a Jew is a matter of having a Jewish mother or having properly converted to Judaism. If you fulfill either of those qualifications, you are automatically Jewish forever. Conversion out is not recognized; after all, Judaism doesn’t recognize the religion that you’re converting into as anything in particular. You were Jewish. Now, you’re Jewish and serving a false god. If you’re an atheist, you’re a Jew who is transgressing the commandment to believe in G-d. That doesn’t make you any less of a Jew; it simply makes you a less observant Jew.

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"Belief is almost irrelevant to Judaism. Abraham is not told to BELIEVE in God, but to walk with God. What is important to Judaism is action, not belief. Doing the right things for the wrong reasons is viewed as sinful (or at best, ambiguous) in Christianity; but in Judaism, doing the right things for the wrong reasons still means you’ve done the right things. Thus, being Jewish is not about believing in God, but about doing the right things. (I decline to get into the discussion of what the “right” things are, since different sects of Judaism have different thoughts on this issue.) "

This is wrong on almost every count.

First of all, the author ought to know that the term “belief” in the sense of affirming that which is empirically unprovable or counter to rational thought, is almost unknown to the biblical mind. If one understands belief as an inner spiritual posture of faith toward God, then “belief” is central to Judaism.

(the Hebrew word “emunah” can be translated as belief, faith, trust, etc…

The origin of “belief” is found in its German root “beliebt” beloved. Abraham did not have to “believe” in God, because he knew God, loved God, trusted God. If was NOT only Abraham’s actions that counted, but his inner state.

Re Abraham: see Gen 15:6, “And Abraham believed in God . . .”
See Exodus, 14:31: “and they believed in God, and Moses his servant”

The commandments to know God, to love God, to observe the Divine way (derech hashem) are all synonymous with the religious notions of belief and faith.
The question of doing the right thing for the wrong reason is best expressed in the dictum, “im lo lishma, ba lishma” if one does not do something for the right reason, by doing it one will come to the right reason. Judaism is not satisfied with doing right only – eventually one ought to come to the right motivation.

See Sa’adia Gaon’s Sefer Emunot veDeot – “The Book of Belief and Opinions” this classic of Jewish theology stresses the importance of right beliefs and opinions.

In fact, every classic of Jewish theology that comes to mind – Guide for the Perplexed, Kuzari, etc. stresses proper belief, as well as every book of Mussar, and certainly in the spiritual tradition.

Relationship with God is at the core of the Jewish tradition: loving God, trusting/believing in God, and performing ritual deeds that help us maintain that love and consciousness, and from that, living a life of righteousness, are core to the Jewish tradition. Both are core; you can’t separate one from the other.

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By tribal religion I meant that according to its “beliefs” (not sure about that word) God created a special relationship with a group of people - Abraham and his decendents who are a tribe or a group of tribes. The religion is not jsut open to anyone and conversion is limited.

I got the idea that you once you converted to another religion from something I read about Jews for Jesus. Basically, even though the founder of the group was jewish he was no longer Jewish but was Christian when he converted. I have the impression that Jews do not like the people in Jews for Jesus calling themselves Jews (even the ones that really were(are?) Jewish.

Also, why do Jews look at the religion of the mother? In the Torah it seems to trace lineage by the father not the mother. It ssems like lineage goes through the Patriarchs not their wives. For instance, are Leah and Rachell even Jewish? They are not the decendents of Abraham.

Which brings me to another question I have, is Abraham Jewish? Or does a person have to come from Judah and his tribe? But it seems like the Torah looks at the decendents of Jacob’s Son’s children and doesn’t look at who the mother is of these children.

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While it is true that Judaism does not actively seek converts, nonetheless, anyone is eligible for conversion.

In the eyes of Jewish Law, once you are a Jew (by birth or conversion), then you are always a Jew. However, with respect to certain laws, a Jew who “converts” to another religion is treated as a non-Jew. But, nonetheless, they are still Jewish. I could not give them a ham sandwich to eat and should they choose to return, no formal conversion is necessary.

Jews for Jesus is a whole separate banana. The founder (“Moishe” Rosen) is not Jewish. What galls us about J4J is the deception in maintaining that Christian beliefs are also valid Jewish ones. If they were a straight Christian evangelical organization, we wouldn’t care so much. But by deliberately blurring the lines between Judaism and Christianity, they seek to ensnare the less educated among the Jewish populace by deliberately providing false information.

I’ve said it on these boards before WRT Jews for Jesus: If you want to seek converts to Christianity, fine go ahead and do so - but do it on the merits of Christianity. But don’t disguise it as a form of Judaism.

Tribal lineage (which is the type of lineage most often mentioned in the Bible) is through the father. Jewish lineage is through the mother. Why the mother? I’m not certain. I’ve heard it said that the reason is because maternity is much easier to establish than paternity - but I’m not certain that that reason is really accurate. As far as Rachel and Leah are concerned (and you could ask the same question about Rebecca as well), one could answer that pre-Sinai, the rules were different. After all Amram (Moses’ father) married his aunt, an act that was prohibited by Sinai.

The word “Jewish” derived from the name Judah, but it is a bit of a misnomer. Abraham is considered Jewish (indeed, he is considered the first Jew). Someone from Benjamin, Simeon, etc. were all Jewish. Their tribal affiliation was determined by their father. But their Jewish identity was determined by their mother.

Zev Steinhardt

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Does not that commandment go “Thou shalt not have any other Gods before me”? This is scarcely a commandment to believe; it is a commandment more of what not to believe: no idolotry allowed; you may not worship any other Gods.

In any case, I’d say that the point is the emphasis. In Judaism the emphasis is on the doing. Follow the rules, the Law, and you’ll develop a personal relationship with God. But following the rules, that’s what is important. Current movements may debate what constitute rules that need to be followed, but that is the gist. Christianity seems (and correct me if I am wrong) to emphasize the belief first, and how that relationship with God will guide you to do the right things.

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Actually, that’s the second commandment. Most Rabbinic authorities hold Exodus 20:2 to be a positive commandment to believe in God.

Zev Steinhardt

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Please note that presumably all those Jews who convert to another religion and many or most of those who become atheists or some other variety of nonbeliever no longer consider themselves Jewish, and deny any claim that that Jewish birth is forever. I have to agree that their assertion over their own beliefs takes priority. Jews can believe whatever they choose but it has no power over those who are no longer Jewish.

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Please note, the Staff Report was focused on the question of whether an atheist can still be Jewish. The answer is yes. Belief in God is not essential to being Jewish.

Yes, belief in God makes observation of the other mitzvot easier; and recognition of God is one of the commandments. But, as Zev so nicely put it, it’s only one of the commandments.

I perhaps went a little extreme in the Staff Report, to make the point of comparison with Christianity, where belief is the tantamount (arguably, the only) consideration. A Christian atheist is not possible, speaking generally. I wanted to make it clear that a Jewish atheist is indeed possible (and there are plenty of 'em.)

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Of course, you’re correct in the sense that if you convert to another religion you are making an implicit statement that Jewish identity does not last for life. However, I’d like to make the following two points:

  1. In the eyes of Jewish law, a person who converts to another religion is still Jewish. While that may mean little to the convertee, it still has meaning for Jews. I still have to treat the person in question as Jewish, even if they, themselves, do not consider themselves so. As such, while I could give a non-Jew non-kosher food to eat, I could not give it to this person, no matter how much he protests that he is not Jewish.

  2. There are only three groups of people to whom Jewish identity matter: Jews, the person in question, and those who hate Jews. We’ve already discussed the first two groups. The last group, however, generally also takes the “once a Jew…” approach as well. History has shown us that when people try to escape their Jewish identity, it is often those that hate Jews who will bring them back. A perfect example of this was in Nazi Germany. The Nazis didn’t care if a Jew converted to Christianity. Even if his parents converted to Christianity before his birth, he was labeled for extermination.

Zev Steinhardt

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Another important point is tehhe status of the children of a converted jewish woman. Her children should be able to claim jewish faith by what you are describing (yes?).

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If they were born after her conversion, they certainly are Jewish. If they were born before her conversion, then her conversion has no bearing on the children and they are not Jewish (unless they, too, convert).

Zev Steinhardt

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zev_steinhardt, thanks for all the information.

I think the question IvoryTowerDenizen was asking what is the status of children of a Jewish woman that has converted to another religion.

So say a Jewish woman becomes a Christian and then has a daughter. Is that daughter Jewish? Will her daughter’s children be Jewish?

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Well, since Jewish law maintains that her conversion to Christianity is meaningless, then it follows that any such “conversion” will not affect her children, as she herself is still Jewish.

Zev Steinhardt

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Bingo. Thanks for clarifying!

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Right. So this is another circumstance where the opinion of the Jewish community at large has significance over a person’s self-identification of their own religious affiliation.

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What about adopted children? Do the same rules apply to them?

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Say I found out my mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother’s mother was Jewish, but had converted and all the woman were then raised in another faith.

Under Jewish law would I be a Jewish?

Also, how did the mothers of Jacob’s sons’ children become Jewish? They were Jewish, right? Did they have to convert? I assume they had to otherwise the children of the 12 tribes would be members of the tribes (through the father) but not Jews (through the mother).

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Adoption has no formal standing in Judaism. If a Jewish couple adopts a non-Jewish child, the child needs a conversion in order to be considered Jewish.

Zev Steinhardt