That’s why I said political, but like I said, it used to be geo-lingual…I do find it interesting that Arabists wont allow Jews to have that title, but Druze and Christians are OK.
Early Jews that were expelled from Arab lands and immigrated to israel were called Arabs. We wouldn’t say that now, of course. 
Well assuming that these guys performed normal work on Saturdays, would you still consider them to be good Jews?
And in your view, does Judaism require its adherents to refrain from normal work on Saturdays?
FinnAgain, knock it off with the “JAQing” comments. I don’t know what brazil84 wants out of this thread, but your “JAQing” references are an attempt to imply something that does not have any particular substance. If you have an actual accusation, take to The BBQ Pit or e-mail him.
brazil84, your constant references to not expelling a member for theft are silly and distracting. I do not know of any religious group, (at a higher organizational level than an individual congregation), that expels its members for mere sinfulness–not Jews, not Catholics or Orthodox, not Muslims, not Baptists or Anglicans or Presbyterians or other Christian denominations. You are not making whatever point you think you are making and such comments just distract from the discussion.
[ /Moderating ]
Ben-Gurion liked the idea of Shabbot as a cultural concept; Einstein I am sure worked on Shabbot. Yes, I am sure some of the Orthodox disapproved, and I am sure they disapprove of my practices, but they are no more the authority of what it means to be Jewish than are members of the Reform movement, as much as some of them may think they are.
There is a difference between…“Jewish law says…” and “Judaism requires…”
Requires for what? And what is ‘normal’ work? *
I like what** DSeid** had to say. But being a “Good Jew” is not about just the one thing you did or didn’t do - it’s the whole person, and quite frankly, it is extremely hard to quantify what makes a person a ‘good Jew’, though Hillel really did say it the best:
*Edit: Don’t even answer that. You’re baiting at this point.
They’re not. They’re a reference to the fact that he still refuses to put forward any actual position and is just trying to poke holes in anything anybody else says, while denying that he has a belief or a side to argue in this debate. It’s a particularly annoying way to simply poke people with a stick and defend a position that you can’t actually argue, but I’m not aware of any implications beyond that. Yes, it’s a tactic that’s used by Truthers and other such folks, but they use it precisely because they can’t support their arguments and/or don’t want to admit to holding them, so instead they just try to frustrate those who are trying to fight ignorance. Brazil is essentially doing the same thing, he’s been told by every single Jew in the thread that belief in God is not required to be a Jew, and he obviously doesn’t accept this fact but instead of arguing for why it’s wrong, he’s needling people and denying that he’s made any claims or has any opinion, at all.
I’d also point out that he agreed in his own words that he’s JAQ’ing. But okay, I won’t mention that again.
Why not just answer the question? Does Judaism require absention from work on Saturdays? I explained how I understand the word “requires,” so it’s a pretty simple yes or no question.
To me, the answer is obviously “yes,” which of course implies that Albert Einstein was not a “good Jew,” or at least as not as much of a “good Jew” as he could have been.
I think the problem here is that the word “Jew” is ambiguous. Before, when I referred to “good Jew,” I meant it in the sense of someone who faithfully follows the dictates of his religion. When people say Einstein was a “good Jew,” they mean something a bit different. They mean that he was a Jew in the more secular sense of the word who was also “good.”
Work which is not for life-saving, emergency, or sacramental purposes.
Please don’t accuse me of arguing in bad faith.
If Judaism is truly about what you practice and not about what you believe, then logically, someone can be a Jew and also believe in Christ. I’ve said this before and people have said noooooooo, you can’t. But I believe you can.
If someone identifies with the Jewish people; attends a synagogue; obeys the Torah laws and keeps Kosher, observes the Sabbath on Friday night and Saturday; celebrates Passover and Yom Kippur; and also happens to personally believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, I think it’s impossible to say that this person does not qualify as a Jew, if indeed it is true that Judaism is not about what you believe.
By the way, I completely admit that I’m “just asking questions.” I don’t have an opinion at this point about whether Judaism requires belief in G-d in the same way that it requires abstention from normal work on Saturdays; abstention from stealing, etc.
I do think it’s an important question and I don’t see why it’s so terrible that I don’t have a position.
As far as expulsion goes, I mentioned it only it response to Finnagain’s raising of the issue starting in post number 26.
They’re right, and you’re wrong. The hint that you’re wrong is that you just used the word “logically” to describe a tribal-religious structure. It doesn’t work that way. It is what it is, and you don’t have to agree with it or accept it, but you can’t ignore it away or claim that your beliefs are more true than reality.
The topic of the thread is whether one can be a religious Jew and not believe in God. the fact is that pretty much the only way to be kicked out of the club of religious Jews is to have faith in Jesus (or other, incompatible theistic religions, which is why Taoism and Buddhism are generally exempt). Atheism does not have the same penalty. Therefore, one can be an atheist and a religious Jew. Trying to change the subject to theft or sabbath breaking, or whatever, is an absurdity.
Yet again as you’re an outsider who hasn’t bothered to learn the basics of the situation you’re talking about ignorance is understandable, but your ignorance is willful at this point. It’s been explained to you, multiple times, that there is no top-down authority in Judaism and that there are numerous sects. Some do not require any sort of cessation of work on the sabbath, at all.
Which has the same problem as above, and yet again is a position that you should actually defend if you’re going to advance it. Apparently you’re defining “good Jew” as pretty much only the Orthodox would, and there seems to be no reason for you doing so.
Would you care to state what your actual position is, why you believe it, and why all the Jews who’ve told you and tried to clear up your ignorance are somehow wrong? How about a cite for your last vestige of denial at this point, that somehow in the Orthodox community one can not be a religious Jew if they don’t believe in God. Rather obviously a cite that says “Orthodox Jews believe in God” will not cut it. This thread is about whether someone can be a religious Jew and an atheist at the same time. You’ll need a cite showing that the Orthodox do not accept Jews are being religious Jews if they don’t believe in God. It’s already pointed out that all Jews do not accept Jews who convert to Christianity, so if your argument has the barest bit of substance, you should be able to finally cite it.
Do you have anything to hang your hat on, at all, as the basis of your denial for what literally every single Jew and every single cite in this thread have all agreed on? Please let’s not go back to an 800+ year old bit of theology that you demand modern people explicitly engage and disagree with.
Would someone care to try to explain why Jesus is such a dealbreaker? I thought Judaism is not about what you believe, it’s about what you do. If this hypothetical person never tried to convert others to believing in Jesus, never even told another living soul that he believed in Jesus - did absolutely nothing differently from the average orthodox Jew except for privately, personally, deep down in his mind, believing in Jesus - how on earth could anyone dogmatically declare that under no circumstances is this person to be considered a Jew?
I thought Judaism is not about dogma, anyway?
I really suspect that the real reason why a Jew “can’t” believe in Jesus is not a matter of theological philosophy but simply because the vast majority of Jews were raised to believe that Christians are bad.
brazil, I am sorry but you seem to be using the word “requires” to mean something that few others would think it means, and even then the answer to your Shabbat question is not as straightforward as you think it is.
What you seem to be asking about is if there is a consensus that a “good Jew” (or a better one anyway) is one who refrains from work on Shabbat, or believes in God, all else being equal. “Requires” has nothing to do with that. “Requires” means, to most of us, “must” and implies expulsion if you do not. Hence why Finn brought that up. But that is not what you say you are asking about. So I am going to drop that word. Even “should, ideally” may be too strong, but is at least more on target.
And yes, it can be said that in general the religion encourages strongly a God concept and encourages strongly not working on Shabbat. Should, ideally. The Orthodox tend to hold those as more important "should"s than say the Reform, who place high importance on ethical behaviors and work toward social justice (Tikkun olam) as the "should"s that qualify one individual over another as a better Jew. Even among the ultra Orthodox what counts as not normal work is hard to call. Even the ultra-Orthodox know that “ideally” is not the real world, and in some circumstances bend the ideal to meet reality.
ultimately for the same reason that you can’t be a Jew and a Muslim. There is no positive requirement for belief in a deity, but there is a negative prohibition against membership in other religions.
Because there is roughly 1000+ years of bad history, and traditionally being a Christian meant that one had separated one’s self from the tribe.
2a) Because Judaism is a tribal religion and “joining competing tribes” is how the metric was fixed.
Do you have a cite to back this up?
Not Jesus specifically, any other god.
Again, remember: this is an ancient tribal religion. Lots of other tribes trying get your folk to try their god on for size. Y’know it is getting tough here in the desert, this god aint working out so well, let’s try the Cow god out, put together the gold folks, Moses aint here and maybe aint coming back. The god a tribe worshiped declared the group you were part of, the side you were on. Back then, once again, I doubt few considered “no god” as an option, but such a thought was no threat. A different god meant you were joining a different group as that god had different demands. And that much did not change with Christianity or Islam being overwhelming numbers around you.
(On edit Finn just said the same thing, but oh well.)
Where is the prohibition? Could you show it to me? Is the prohibition written down somewhere? Is it codified in a book of Jewish law? Has it been declared by some Chief Rabbi from whom other Jews take their religious orders?
Every Jew I have ever met, including my own family, have been deeply distrustful of Christianity at best, and relentlessly derisive and mocking of Christianity at worst.
I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that “atheist” equals cool, intellectual, hip, modern, progressive, scientific, and liberal, and “Christian” equals dowdy, old-fashioned, conservative, white-bread, and intolerant, in the minds of most Americans today.
“I’m a Jewish atheist.” “Cool! Welcome to my synagogue.”
“I’m a Jew, and I believe in Jesus.” “Fuck off.”
I think we covered the Jesus thing* ad nauseam* in the other thread. But really, if you believe in Jesus super secretly and do nothing about it, you’re not acting on it. And you may be ‘excluded’ from the tribe as one who went to go And join another, but you could always ‘return’ to Judaism. Essentially what we (or most of us?) said was that “Christian Judaism” wasn’t Judaism at all. It was Christianity.
As far as what makes a good Jew, there is no strict consensus on that. Most Jews today would look towards the mitzvot you are commanded to do in relation to others - feed the hungry, visit the sick, etc. The ultra-Orthodox sects will often say that their way is the only way (no surprise) and they are a minority. The Modern Orthodox are more likely to accept that others have different ways of practice and the families have varied forms of practice outside their shul doors but will still advocate a degree of orthodoxy.
If you mean a Tzaddik, or ‘Righteous One’, well, sure. Observe all the laws. Be a rabbi. Whatever.
But you can be a Torah-observant Jew and still be a real dickhead. I’d rather be a mensch than a xenophobic rabbi.
In Judaism, you’re more likely to be judged by the ultimate impact you have on others. See: Paul Wellstone.
Deuteronomy is full of them -
but I think the most famous is: “You shall have no other gods but me.”
Sounds pretty straight forward to me.
Christians don’t believe that Christ is “another God.”
Lots of Jews believed that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the Messiah - how is this any less objectionable than believing the same thing about Jesus?
But Jews do.
Because Jesus is/was a false Messiah and his religion dictates the law of Moses to be null and void. Plus - a man-child being born of a virgin? Can you get any more pagan than that?
Um, and there were/are critics of all sects of the Messiah/Rebbe movement. I never said it wasn’t as bad. If anyone today says that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the Mosiach then he is a fool.