Does Judaism require a belief in God [Split from earlier thread]

Great Debates
141

I’ve lost Internet again (comcast and Irene, grrrrr), so I can’t give a long reply via phone.

There have been so many choices I’ve made (as do everyone but the most observant). I no longer keep kosher, don’t keep the sabbath etc. My son had a bris. I write G-d for reasons I’m not even sure of, just like I say the shema when my plane gets bumpy.

Jewish ethics put a high premium on protecting life and being a good steward of the world. when you move away from the ultra orthodox and closed sects I find a premium on tolerance and a socially progressive pov. Actions over beliefs. Respect for intellectualism, challenging scripture, inquisitiveness.

More when I get Internet back…

142

Just my opinion, but if you want to say something like that to Brazil, you should take off your moderating hat and just participate in the debate. As you have already split this thread off into its own narrow subject, it’s obvious that anyone still here wants to be here, and they are perfectly capable of dealing with Brazil if they choose to, or ignoring him if they don’t. I don’t question your right to squelch a poster who is clearly and deliberately disrupting a thread, but I have seen no sign of incivility or insincerity from Brazil, and IMO it’s not your job to say one side or the other has been refuted.

I think Brazil’s point is extremely relevant, since people keep using non-expulsion as “proof” that belief is not important. And it’s especially ironic that you accuse Brazil of not getting what other posters are saying, and then justify your criticism of his point by referring to the way a bunch of Christian denominations behave. In view of that, I suggest that the fact that you don’t understand Brazil’s point is not dispositive.

I’m also at a loss as to how you can see FinnAgain spend most of his time saying or implying that people are insincere, ignorant, disingenuous, outsiders (with no knowledge of their origins), devious, etc., and only now you call him, not on his constant belittling of people, but on the use of a single term. Just how ad hominem does someone have to be before you moderate that?

143

This shit is meshuginah. I say if he is a Jew, we vote him out right now.

Apologies. <blush>

Say what?

I send my son to day school, we keep kosher [style], he goes to shul on Fridays, gives part of his allowance to tzedakah and wears kippot that I sew for him. We even visit the elderly in the Jewish retirement home.

He knows full well that I don’t believe in God as a matter of positive affirmation, but I’m more of a ‘soft atheist’.

I remember the story of HaShem taking us out of Egypt. It’s probably why I’m so inclined to be nice to strangers and newcomers.

“Observant Jews” don’t follow a religion. They are living a life that is identifiable amongst each other. They may do it differently, but it’s recognizable.

Many Jews do this as a matter of respect. It’s about knowing there is something (for some, it’s a concept) that’s much, much bigger than you.

144

Guess not, eh?

You are, yet again, shifting the goalposts. Your own OP concludes with the claim that “You are welcome to consider yourself whatever you want, but I think you are misleading people when you state or imply that belief in God is not a crucial aspect of the Jewish religion.”

This contains two statements, the first that one may only “consider themselves” something and not that there’s an external sanction from their religion, and the second that they are deceiving people if they state or even imply that it’s perfectly possible to be a religious Jewish atheist. (Ironic considering your objecting to what you believe are claims of deception) The fact of the matter, as you’ve been told by literally every single Jew to post in this thread, is that you can be a religious Jewish atheist with no problem. The fact that there only transgression which will remove you from being a religious Jew is joining another religion is relevant since it shows that one can be a religious Jew and be an atheist but one can not be a religious Jew and believe in certain other religions’ tenets. Brazil’s absurd questions about theft carrying the same penalty is not relevant.

Brazil claims he has no point. Funny, that.

Some of the characterizatinos you’ve simply imagined, but pointing out that you and Brazil are both ignorant, and in fact wilfully so, is not against the rules. The sheer number of times that Brazil has asked for an “authority” after being told that Judaism doesn’t have religious authorities like that shows that he is ignorant on that subject and wilfully maintains it. Likewise, when someone obviously understands nothing at all about Judaism but still wants to debate it, and remains wilfully ignorant despite repeated clarifications, it’s quite easy to point out that they’re an outsider. There’s no shame in out-group membership, but in a debate that turns on in-group practices, out-group membership coupled with willful ignorance of in-group practices becomes a bar to discussion. And as pointed out, even if he was born into a Jewish household, his utter lack of basic comprehension about how Judaism works places him as an outsider in terms of religious discussions.

As for arguing from a preconceived conclusion and trying to justify it, as you’ve been doing all thread despite numerous posters and cites that have all tried to fight your ignorance, that’s not good either. You’ve argued that despite the fact that we had actual religious leaders saying that there was no problem with their congregants being atheists, that since “other Jews” believed something different, then obviously there were flies in the soup and there couldn’t be religious Jewish atheists. :smack: Then you cherrypicked the UAHC decision to not allow a new congregation to join their member organization where, right in that passage, it clearly said that the UAHC made that decision in the context of making an explicit statement that individuals were perfectly able to be atheist religious Jews, and that their current member congregations could even explicitly advocate for atheism, but that they wouldn’t take on any new, explicitly atheist congregations. Then you tried to shift the goalposts and claim that was somehow rejecting atheist religious Jews rather than rejecting a temple’s request for membership in an umbrella organization.

You do not understand what “ad hominem” means.

145

The “proof” that belief in God is not an essential aspect of Judaism is really four-fold:

  1. It is nowhere explicitly stated in the scriptural commandments that one cannot be an atheist (though there are numerous references to loving God with all your might, remembering what God has done by way of miracles in the mythology, etc.). By contrast, the injunction to not worship other gods is most explicit.

  2. Pretty well all non-Orthodox Jewish religious authorities outright state that one can be a member of their congregations and not believe in God. In most Christian sects, this is not the case.

  3. The vast majority of Jews (and Judaism is a ‘bottom-up’ rather than a ‘top-down’ religion) do not believe that belief in God is necessary to be a Jew, or even a good Jew. Doing good and conformity to ritual is more significant than belief. Jews tend to judge other Jews based on what they do, not what they believe.

  4. Matters of belief, as opposed to ritual and practice, are often hazy and left to the individual’s choice in ways that Christianity would in general find bizzare. For example, there is no Jewish consensus on the afterlife - whether it exists, and if so, what it is like.

Thus, it is perfectly possible for an atheist to find a place within Judaism, and in point of fact, many do, quite openly. It is not so easy for an atheist to find a place within mainstream Christianity, where belief plays a much larger role.

146

There are a crap load of Jewish atheists out there who are accepted by the Jewish community. I don’t see the tricky part in observing or understanding that.

147

Even “command” is not “require”. Most certainly we are commanded to not believe something, other gods. I would even accept an argument that the first “commandment” of what many refer to as “the Ten Commandments” (also known as “Aseret ha-D’varim”) is a commandment to believe. (In Jewish tradition the first is “I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery.” “You shall have no other gods before Me …” starts off the second.) As cmkeller illustrates, quite a few Orthodox Jews would argue that a good Jew, a better Jew, an observant Jew, believes in God. But again the Orthodox do not speak for all Jews or Jewish movements, they are not, in the minds of the rest of us, “the authority”, and whether they like it or not the religion has continued to evolve for many. For the rest of us that commandment to believe, if we even accept it exists at all, is no big deal, whereas the modern interpretation of “Tikkun Olam”, not an ancient concept, is. While the Ten Commandments are thought of as being literally written in stone, what we emphasize as important is not.

Again, one can argue that we are not being logically consistent, one can even argue that modern Jewish movements have cherry picked what they want to believe to fit what they want their religion to emphasize, and ignored that which is inconvenient or which their modern sensibilities tell them makes little sense. Could be. But it is still what is.

148

This is interesting, and uses the (possibly hoax) atheist Orthodox rabbi to argue that belief does matter, while acknowledging that contemporary Judaism does not think so.

Mind you I do not agree with the analysis - I see modern Judaism as full of philosophy - but it may make the range of Jewish thought on the subject a bit more clear to anyone who really wants to understand it.

149

Technically you are right, of course. However it seems to me you were using a technicality to avoid the fundamental question in this thread.

Agreed.

I agree with this too. For some reason, other posters seem to have a hard time with the concept that there isn’t a simple yes or no answer to the question.

I agree with this too, but I am still interested to see how people reconcile their views with what is contained in the Hebrew Bible.

150

Long-story short, Biblical & classical Rabbinic Judaism does require a belief in God. Modern, post-Haskalah Judaism doesn’t.
Wouldn’t that be accurate?

151

What’s (apparently) tricky is understanding that “What do I need to do to be accepted by the Jewish community” is not necessarily the same question as “What does Judaism require of its adherents”

152

Could you define “Judaism” in that context?

153

Malthus:

So when the Torah says to remember something that G-d did, or that the Jews did in relation to G-d, those words can be taken to mean, essentially, to remember the moral of a fable?

First of all, the fact that the “remember” commandment is at the root of a more action-oriented commandment (to treat one’s servants humanely and free them after 6 years of servitude) hardly means that it is not itself a commandment. Many commandments contain multiple requirements. Secondly, if the “remember” is treated as myth rather than reality, then doesn’t that compromise the sense of sympathy it’s intended to impart? “Remember” is an appeal to sense of personal identification with the afflicted, and of gratitude toward the one who granted said freedom. A fable can be inspiring, no doubt, but certainly not as much so as reality.

Thirdly, while your statement might be true for my last quoted verse, that would be completely out of context for the other verses I quoted. The command to remember the event at Sinai is, in context, so that we do not begin to take credit for our earthly accomplishments, which would result in G-d punishing us with exile and hardship. The “myth” is in support of nothing more than obedience to G-d which is (if one is atheist) itself just a myth. The second one I quoted is, in context, supporting nothing but belief in the “myth.” The third is a commandment to bless G-d for the land he has given once we have eaten, to satisfaction, of its fruits. If G-d is nothing but a myth, who are you supposed to be thanking? The farmer? If you grow your own food (and agrarian societies were certainly the rule rather than the exception in Biblical times, all the way up until the Industrial Revolution), is this a commandment to bless yourself? Or the unhearing, unthinking forces of nature?

Citizen Pained:

An interesting definition of “observant”, but I specifically said “observing the Torah.” Do you contend that the examples I cited from the Torah are being observed by one who does not believe in G-d? If they are not, then clearly the Torah is being observed only partially. This is not to say that the meritorious actions you and your family do in the Judaic tradition are not acts of Torah observance (though I’m curious if the “Kosher [style]” you referred to in your post has specific rules or is just a type of cuisine), but the implication I got from the original GQ thread from which this was spawned was that you (and others) were contending that nothing in the Torah specifically requires belief as a prerequisite for its observance, and therefore, atheism was entirely consistent with the Torah, as written.

154

That’s certainly how I take it, yes.

I firmly disagree - at least, this isn’t so in my experience. It might be so for you, but it isn’t universally true, and it isn’t self-evident.

Yes - the universe, the vitality of life, joy, the ability to provide for ourselves, how great and amazing it is that we can eat the stuff that comes out of the ground and it keeps us going, wow science! wow nature! wow universe!

Rabbinic Judaism isn’t consistent with Torah as written. There are a whole bunch of animals the Torah says we should be sacrificing that we aren’t sacrificing, and I for one think the world is a better place for that.

155

SecondJudith:

I should clarify: The same story is more inspirational if it’s true than if it’s just made up.

That’s not gratitude. That’s just enjoyment.

Rabbinic Judaism is entirely consistent with the Torah as written, when the entirety of the Torah is considered. The reason we do not sacrifice animals has nothing to do with Rabbis changing Torah law, it’s because the Torah itself says that after a Holy Temple site has been selected, sacrifices are not permitted anywhere else. Rabbinic Judaism is all about consistency. Practically every page of Talmud is about clarifying points of Torah law by making certain it is consistent with Torah text.

156

Well if person n doesn’t do x and is still accepted by group y, then in what way does group y require x of n?

157

Again, that isn’t true for me. Please don’t pretend your personal preferences are universal truisms.

I don’t find there’s a meaningful difference in my appreciation of things.

HA! Nice one.

Again, this is just factually untrue. The Talmud is chock full of folk sayings, folk tales, fairy tales, The Adventures Of The Prophet Elijah, The Adventures of Rabbi _______ And His Students/Wife/Teachers, biblical fanfiction, what to do when you see a demon, time travel, etc. It doesn’t even have Torah on the page - the old text in the centre of the page is the Mishnah.

Rabbinic Judaism is creative. It straight-up makes up a lot of stuff. Although a lot of gloss is put on rabbinic practices to make them line up with perceived Torah laws, the rabbinic exercise is fundamentally an expansionary, inventive exercise. Personally, I think the way rabbinic Judaism is flexible and able to grow and change with as the Jewish people grow and change is the reason it’s survived so long as a religion – I don’t think there would be very many Jews today if we all adhered to the same strict Torah-only “laws”. Compare with the Samaritans, who are down to a population of about 700 worldwide these days.

158

Second Judith:

Maybe not, but it’s certainly a meaningful difference in whether you’re observing what the text of the verse says, and whether you’re neglecting what the text of the verse says.

Yes, those things are also present in Talmud…in lesser amounts. They’re generally mentioned as a related digression to some discussion of a point of law, as the textual style of Talmud tends to be stream-of-thought rather than rigidly organized. And yes, what’s printed on a page of the Talmud is commentary on the Mishnah rather than directly on the Torah text. You seriously think this is news to me? Mishnah is similarly consistent with the Torah text, but was written much more concisely.

Absolutely untrue. I’m not saying there are no decrees that were invented whole-cloth by post-Biblical Rabbis - the holiday of Hanukkah is one well-known example - but Rabbinic Judaism is not fundamentally inventive. It is fiercely protective of tradition (even back in Talmudic days) and the purpose of most Talmudic discussion is to use the Torah to prove or disprove points on which certain details of tradition became unclear.

I do not know what your scholarly background is - for all I know, you have studied parts of the Talmud. But a refutation of this rather interesting viewpoint of yours on the Talmud is no further away than Maimonides. His magnum opus - Mishnah Torah - begins with a list of commandments taken directly from Biblical verses, and then, after he organizes those commandments into categories and sub-categories, it is a rather simple matter to note how he will start discussion of a law by citing the Biblical commandment, and then follow that up with details that are lifted almost verbatim out of the Talmud. It is not at all invention. It is recording of details that were already known from tradition, and were (except for those few things like Hanukkah) ultimately derived from Torah.

159

It depends on how you define the word “require.” I offered my own definition a few posts back.

Of course you are free to point out that technically Judaism requires nothing at all of its adherents, besides perhaps payment of synagogue dues. However in my opinion that definition is not true to the spirit of the original exchange which sparked this thread.

160

Again, your definition is a bit idiosyncratic. Still, who else defines who is “a good Jew” if not the Jewish community, arguing amongst themselves? In fact there is a great Talmudic fable about that: