Or eerie coincidences. There’ve been times when my thoughts and a friends’ have been so close that I would always exclaim “Hey, I’m telepathic!” Of course, in all seriousness, I know exactly what it is… coincidence.
Anyone want to lay odds that one of the magic believing nut-jobs responds with something along the lines of "You’re just denying your true power / gift / ability; and if you’re going to do that then (Say it with me now) I don’t need to prove anything to you.
Or the coincidences may not be “eerie” at all. If you are good friends with a person, chances are likely that you have quite a few things in common. You probably wouldn’t be friends if you didn’t have the same type of thoughts, feelings, etc.
So when me and my fiance have almost the exact same thought, I don’t get all excited over it. I probably wouldn’t be with him if we didn’t share certain thoughts on certain subjects.
Besides that, when you spend enough time with a person, you know how they think anyway. Nothing telepathic about it.
I can lay my hands on hard drives and make them undetectable by computers even though they still spin, and make my motherboard start smoking:)
The ones that do, we quickly forget that we scoffed at them earlier. Acupuncture was just recently recognized by the medical community as useful.
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that should be “recognized as being possibly somewhat beneficial by parts of the medical community”
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To put acupuncture in terms of this thread, we are not discussing whether or not acupuncture works, but whether there is such a think as Ki energy. The technique of acupunture can be tested, detected, and replicated. Ki energy cannot. As such, there is no evidence it exisits.
The bootm line is that by definition, the answer will always be “We don’t know.”
Suppose the Great Wizard Zardoz shows up, casts a spell and levitates a quarter in mid-air under controlled and repeatable conditions to the satisfaction of skeptics.
Magic, right?
Science will investigate, and almost certainly figure out the mechanism responsible.
Suppose they figure out that there is a little used gland in the brain that some people can use to influence reality by altering quantum states or something.
Well, now it’s not magic.
Suppose Zardoz tells everybody that the spell he uses causes Demons to do his bidding. Science will investigate, and if they find that there is another dimension where beings are willing or capable of being compelled to perform services, no doubt science will figure out how it works. They’ll build mathematical models and analyze the process until they understand the forces at work.
So, even in that extreme case, there is no magic. There are only undiscovered forces, or those that are not correctly understood, yet.
In a very real sense, that’s what the concept of magic is; and undiscovered or misunderstood natural force. There are no unnatural or supernatural forces.
Does what is commonly understood as magic really exist?
'Proly not. Casting spells has never worked under controlled circumstances to any measurable degree. If there are forces of the mind that can influence reality, we haven’t found them, or even compelling evidence for them.
But, as we understand the universe, such is not impossible. We know that the simple act of observing changes things at the quantum level. The experimenter is a part of the experiment. We know that unconnected particles can affect each other’s state.
Carl Sagan suggested that there was some evidence to suggest that perhaps the human brain could influence reality to the degree of slight alterations in random number generation. He was very clear that he didn’t think it was likely that this was the case (poor experiment design being the most likely culprit,) but that it was worth checking out.
So, it’s possible that magic exists.
Among modern “magick” practitioners, I think a better explanation than the supernatural presents itself.
I think that what we’re really seeing is “visualization” being called magic. As any good motivational speaker can tell you, defining your goals is the first step to getting them. Want them badly enough, have them on your mind all the time, and you will tend to take advantage of opportunity to get them when it presents. Have undefined or vague goals and you will be less likely to be prepared to get them.
I’m sure the cavemen thought they were doing magic when they painted on cave walls. What they were really doing was planning.
To me, it’s unfortunate that people wish to give away the credit for their own accomplishments, to a supernatural force. People should be proud of waht they have done. The human mind is a tricky thing though, and if it helps people define their goals and motivation I don’t really have a problem with magick.
On a side note, I’d like to my opinion about something:
This board is about fighting ignorance. When scientists study other cultures and belief systems they tend to do so with respect. They do so, because it is not their job to convert others to their belief system, nor would it be prudent to attempt to throw a monkey wrench into somebody else’s, when you are not aware of the affects it might have. Especially, as most beleif systems exist for a reason.
Randi himself is polite in these circumstances. Hucksters are of course another story and deserve to be humiliated. It’s always nice to be sure which you are dealing with though, before you wade in with contempt.
Scylla, I for one don’t care whether science will eventually find a way to explain how Zardoz manages to levitate that hypothetical quarter. I just want to see somebody do it. (Without trickery, of course.) Yet every time Czarcasm or MEBuckner or anybody else in this thread challenges some magic adherent to demonstrate that such things exist, it goes someting like this:
Rational person: Please demonstrate magic.
Magic person: If I did, then you’d explain the phenomenon and it wouldn’t be magic any longer, or you’d just deny that anything happened. But I still say magic exists, and you can’t prove it doesn’t. Neener neener.
On the basis of the evidence in this thread, I cannot conclude that magic does or does not exist. But I can conclude that the posters claiming it exists are serious weasels.
Scylla, as I’ve said before, what part of not providing evidence of powers claimed am I supposed to respect? This has been going on for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Somebody claims to have some fantastic power, someone else wants to see it up close, and the “true believers” close ranks. “Persecution!”, “Doubting Thomas!”, and “Those Soulless Atheists!” become the rally cries of the day, and the crystal-huggers go home knowing they’ve defended the TRUTH from the ignorant heathens.
I don’t care about your religion.
I don’t care about your philosophy.
Show me magic.
Now I know how Jesus felt as he stood before Pontitus Pilate and the Pharises…
I hope you can understand why myself and (prehaps) the other Pagans have been reluctant to post here. From reading your words, it seems you’ve already made up your mind on the subject, even before I present an argument or any evidence; you’ve decide I’m wrong and you’re right.
One observation I’ve had, as I’ve watched this thread grow is the attitude that “how dare you believe in magic, we have to show you the error of your ways!” Which was the same attitude, albeit somewhat more polite, than the infamous Pit thread that spawned this one. It’s even reached the point of name calling:
**JDeMobray wrote:
Anyone want to lay odds that one of the magic believing nut-jobs responds with something along the lines of "You’re just denying your true power / gift / ability; and if you’re going to do that then (Say it with me now) I don’t need to prove anything to you.**
and Minty Green echoing with:
On the basis of the evidence in this thread, I cannot conclude that magic does or does not exist. But I can conclude that the posters claiming it exists are serious weasels.**
But, on with the show. When I brought up the subject of magic in the Ask the Neo-Pagan Guy thread, I listed magic as one of the many things that Pagans take are an article of their faith. I tried to emphasize that this was only one of the minor points and not everyone agreed upon it. Since talking with a few of my co-religionists, that point has been driven home to me. As I joked in that thread, if you ask 13 Pagans their opinion on something, you’ll come up with 14 different answers. I think the general consensus was that magic is effective for changing one’s own reality, but how effective it is on external reality is a different matter.
One question that’s come up here is “what is magic” ?? I’ve referred back to Bonewits’s Real Magic in a number of other threads. I highly recommend you get a copy and read it, because many Pagans draw on it for their ritual construction. Bonewits defines magic as thus:
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a general term for arts, sciences, philosophies and technologies concerned with (a) understanding and using various altered states of consciousness within which it is possible to have access to and control over one’s psychic talents, and (b) the uses and abuses of those psychic talents to change interior and/or exterior realities.
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a science and an art comprising a system of concepts and methods for the build-up of human emotions, altering the electrochemical balance of the metabolism, using associational techniques and devices to concentrate and focus this emotional energy, thus modulating the energies broadcast by the human body, usually to affect other energy patterns whether animate or inanimate, but occasionally to affect the personal energy patterns.
Real Magic, Isaac Bonewits, 1989, pg. 258
There’s my definition, can we work toward a consensus on this?
Or suppose they don’t.
I’ll bet all the quarters I can manage and then borrow some more that Zardoz is gonna have a headache on that crucial laboratory day! This would seem almost begging to be taken advantage of by a Magic practioneer…
It is not possible to levitate a quarter with the power of the mind because that is outside the boundaries of natural law by which the world works.
Seems obvious to me that we have grown so much in sheer numbers and been around for long enough for this to be accepted as common sense until someone comes around and makes my day (when pigs fly), because although skeptical I’m eager to learn.
Freyr, it has been stated over and over again in this thread what definition of “magic” we’re looking for. Yet another definition is something that is not needed here-we’ve already had threads dedicated to the many definitions and spellings people have given the word to justify to themselves the claim that they have some sort of “magical” ability that they don’t have to show anyone.
BTW, Freyr, Bonewits’ first definition is semantically null. and his second definition uses one unproven concept(personal energy fields) to define another(magic).
Magic, as defined here, can never be demonstrated. Likewise, wafers of bread and dollops of wine can never be demonstrated to have truly transubstantiated into the flesh and blood of Christ. Likewise, the wheel of samsara can never be demonstrated, just as Heaven, Hell, the Bardo in general, etc., can never be demonstrated. And so on.
These things are, however, “witnessed”. And but for the shouting, that’s simply end of any reasonable discussion about them, at least a discussion centering around demonstrated proof of replicability and testability.
This claim may be disproven, of course, by someone demonstrating any of the above in a replicable manner.
Variant definitions and spellings do not exist merely because of self-justifications, although of course they are appropriated for that purpose as well. There are varying ways of looking at, symbolizing, and structuring non-demonstrable items of witnessed internal reality; unsurprisingly, varying terms and definitions are applied.
I’ll tell you what.
Why don’t you find someone who claims that they can levitate, and have her/him levitate in front of people who understand how most levitation tricks are faked.
Why don’t you have someone who claims that they can read minds try to read the mind of someone without being able to see facial expressions(which could give away clues).
How about a simple demonstration of psychokenisis? I’ll put a dime on the table, and someone who claims to be able to move objects with her/his mind can attempt to move the dime from a mere 10 feet away, with nothing more than a sheet of cheap see-through plastic wrap in front of the dime.
I couldn’t make this any simpler if I said, “Please bring me the red ball that is sitting on the dining room table.”
I do hope that “you” isn’t pointed at me; if it is, I’d suggest taking a breather.
“Why don’t you find someone…” Because those claims cannot be demonstrated. The claimants are either knowingly lying, or delusional. In the same manner, a priest who claimed that he could demonstrate that the bread and wine really do become flesh and blood is delusional. I’m very confident of that, until such time as someone falsifies the claim by demonstration–and I doubt that shall ever occur.
“You cannot reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into in the first place.” (My new favorite quote, I’ve got to start reading Swift.) None of the avowed magicians that are aggravating you so are going to bow their heads and say, hey, you’re right, no moreso than any priest whose article of faith is literal and not symbolic transubstantiation is going to bow their head and say, hey yeah, they really don’t change their substance. None of them are going to demonstrate magic. It’s that simple.
Drastic, it wasn’t aimed at you. It was aimed at all those who have claimed that they didn’t understand what I was asking for, that claimed the definition wasn’t clear enough, that claimed that “magic” REALLY is…(insert your favorite feel-good definition here).
The underlined parts of Freyr’s definition seem to me capable of being demonstrated. The italicized parts may be, depending on what exactly he means by “energy patterns”:
I can’t quite make out at this point whether or not we’re talking about something like transubstantiation, which has been so defined that it’s clearly not empirically demonstrable or amenable to scientific investigation, or something more like faith healing, which would properly be the subject of scientific investigation.
Doesn’t matter. The point isn’t making people admit that they’re mistaken (or, worse, lying), the point is getting everyone else to realize that it’s all a bunch of baloney.
Cripes. Lots of smoke, but no fire. Are there any believers out there?
Can we stop arguing for a while and nail this down? Nearly 24 hours after the posting listed above and no one has taken the challenge, or even mentioned it.
Just wanted to bring this up again.
Oh, and again, please, only believers to answer this post. No skeptics.