Does Mali matter?

With the news that British forcesare to join the Malian and French forces already combatting an Islamist/ethnic insurgency in the north of the country I’m left wondering if Mali matters and if it does why?

I mean with relation to Britain or France. France has a colonial hangover, with Mali once being a part of the French colonial empire in Africa, but why is the UK getting involved?

This isn’t meant as snark I’m genuinely curious as to the reasons why they deem intervention important in this instance. It would be great to get the input of Even Sven as she seems rather knowledgable on the subject.

Well, everybody is there now - US and Canada are involved.

As for OP - what the heck do we know? There’s some country in the middle of Africa ruled by Western colonial power which installs collaborators to ensure all the resources are being extracted. As much as it is a cliche but corporate interests runs your Governments and they get together and probably agree that it makes sense to save lucrative deals with taxpayers money. It also comes handy to associate the other dudes with bogeyman of 21st century and voila (pun intended) military action is there without your or mine Parliament voting on it.

You really think that you’ll find out their reasoning on the pages of SDMB?

Maybe, otherwise I woudn’t have asked.

Mali’s entire GDP is slightly larger then the amount Time Warner just paid for the rights to broadcast a single baseball teams ball-games. Even if such insidious corporate overlords existed, I seriously doubt Mali would be worth their time.

As to the OP: I don’t think its any deeper then the fact that Western gov’ts don’t like Islamists and don’t want to see them gain control of another country, especially as ethnic groups that have joined the rebels also have a presence in other countries (Libya, Algeria, Mauritania) that might be vulnerable to the same thing.

Well, we’re currently in Afghanistan to deny Al Queda a base of operations and safe haven; it would seem to be at least as wise to disallow them from gaining a stronghold elsewhere, before they get too well-entrenched and something on the scale of Afghanistan becomes necessary.

You might say it causes more problems than it solves, and it’s a lot like playing whack-a-mole, but that’s what makes it matter, for better or worse.

The British PM actually said that a bunch of beardy nutters with guns in Mali was an extistential threat to Britain – that they literally threatened Britain’s existence. And nobody batted an eyelid, nobody in parliament or the media called bullshit.

Britan, France etc. are there because there are a bunch of transnational Tuareg/Alegerian/Morroccan/Malian jihadis running round the Sahel kidnapping, smuggling drugs and people but now graduating into trying to take territory and making terrorist attacks on oil production facilities like the recent one in Algeria.

These guys reached critical mass recently when we overthrew Gadaffi and a lot of his army, who were Malian Tuareg mercenaries, robbed his arms depots and fucked off back to Mali, joining up with the jihadis and overrunning the north.

The west have massive oil/gas/uranium interests in all the surrounding countries – the French just sent special forces into Niger to protect their uranium-mining operation there – and so the west will now send a bunch of special forces and drones to play whack-a-mole with the jihadis in the sahel while they get on with the serious business of protecting all the hydrocarbon/uranium extraction facilities in the region.

In the time we’ve been in Afghanistan there are a dozen countries that have had coups that have led to weakened governments that can’t deal with jihadis like Mali or on the road to if not already there failed states like Yemen. What are we supposed to do, invade them all?

There’ll always be somewhere jihadis can go, we can’t invade everywhere.
Also, too. Every time we see footage of these “terrorist training camps” in these “safe havens” it’s always a bunch of beardy nutters on monkey bars:

Now I ask you. You’re an Islamic terrosit. You’ve got the false identity down, you’ve successfully blended into western society, you’ve worked out an ingenious method of getting weapons onto your plane and you’re in the departure lounge waiting to board. You’re heading trough your gate and there’s a huge fucking set of monkey bars that you have to get to the end of. Whoops, you fell off, you’re off the fucking flight.

You know why those guys are on monkey bars? Because they’re off to fight in an actual ground war, whether it was Afghanistan, Iraq, Kashmir, Chechnya, Yemen, Somalia, Chad or somewhere else. They’re not training to fuck with the west.

Now, jihadis actually attacking the west. Our latest stated aim in Afghanistan is to spend the next deacde or three trying to build up its system of government so that, if all goes well, it’s equivalent to Pakistan’s at some point in the future.

It should be noted that neither Afghanistan, Pakistan or any of the above-mentioned jihadi countries will ever be as well-governed as Germany, particularly Hamburg, Germany, where the 9/11 attacks were planned by an engineer who spoke five languages, not some illiterate goon on monkey bars in some country that doesn’t matter.

Our interest in the area is primarily focused on security, and we see Mali as playing a potentially pivotal role in the region (speaking from a US perspective here). Mali is traditionally a fairly laid back, relatively inclusive place, and until the coup they had what was seen as a fairly strong democracy. But Mali also lies at the crossroads of a lot of tricky business.

Islamicists are always looking for places to set up shop, and Mali is as good a place as any. If they control Mali, they are right in the heart of a region that is really difficult for outside forces to deal with geographically. The borders are porous, security is lax, the neighbors are restless, the people are poor, and we worry that it’s a ripe place for terrorism to take hold as it did in Afghanistan. If it is in more reasonable hands, however, it can serve as a geographic and cultural road block to terrorist movements. A friendly Mali can slow unpleasant cultural exchanges between North Africa, West Africa, and the Horn.

Likewise, we are generally more comfortable when countries are working towards something like peaceful democracy-ish situations. Up until now, that progress has been fairly good across pretty good chunks of Africa. But Mali’s neighbors, despite their progress, have some pretty nasty history, and history shows that these things cross border very easily. Chaos in Mali can quickly spill over and cause all kinds of havoc across West and even Central Africa. If Mali turns into a train wreck, we can expect more wars nearby and potentially the end of a decade of progress of in the region. This has immediate consequences, and will no doubt create future problems we can’t even begin to imagine. We’d rather that Mali just gets back on track and the rest of the region keep doing what it’s doing.

Finally, there are other concerns with the region. Niger is all tied up in this, and they have uranium mines. Taurag separatists are everywhere in the Sahel, and nobody has any idea what to do with them, but we know we’d rather not deal with that all right now. The drug and human trafficking trade is HUGE across the Sahara, and that can cause all kinds of problems. We’d rather not see more narco-Islamicists and the like. And, of course, in some deep part of our hearts we were pretty happy that one of the poorest countries on Earth managed to put together a democracy, we are caught off guard when it didn’t work out, and we do want the people of Mali to have some hope at some point of not being among the most impoverished on the planet.

In the end, I believe this really is France’s problem. Francophone African countries have for the most part barely achieved independence in any real way, and France has been all up in the business of everyone in the region since Colonial times. But France has a different approach than us, and we’ve had a pretty strong security presence in Mali for at least the last decade, so we are starting to shoulder some of it. i really don’t see anything of value for us in intervening- I think we’ll just be doing our own recruiting for the next generation of terrorists by giving the nice people of Mali all kinds of memories of drones and bombs. But I doubt we’ll let that kind of common sense stop us.

Good Golly!
Sorry, just had to be first with that one.

I don’t think you were in danger of being beaten to that one…

One consideration is that NATO nations bear a lot of responsibility for the collapse of Mali’s government. After the overthrow of Qaddafi, the western nations that supplied the Libyan rebels with weapons allowed a lot of those weapons to flow out of the country and into the possession of groups like the Touareg rebels that seized the northern half of Mali.

Sorry for the MPSIMS, but I had a roommate once in the mid-'90s who was visiting from Mali, and it sounded in many ways like a nice country with a lot going for it. (Interesting blend of secularism and accommodation for Islamic law, for one thing. That is, for instance, a man could marry monogamously or polygamously, but if he wanted to be polygamous then he had to declare that choice officially at the time of his first marriage and had to get his wife’s consent to it. No getting married to one woman and then telling her a bit later “Surprise, honey! Here’s your new teammate!”)

Anyway, she was really nice and I hope she and her family are okay.

I think the aspiration might be to separate the Tuareg insurgency from the Al Qaeda one, which is a decent goal, as far as that goes. As the leader of one of the Tuareg insurgent groups said, they have grievances going back 50 years, so well predating Al Qaeda. And in fact the Tuareg insurgency has been going on, in fits and starts, since the 1960s. Since the Tuareg have been open to talks, it’s worth trying to split them from Al Qaeda. Heck, in a perfect world, you could get the Tuareg to hunt down Al Qaeda. If it’s me making the decision, I would actually pay them to do so. They’re the ones who know the desert and live there. They could make it actually impossible for Al Qaeda across that entire quadrant of Africa. And it’s a big quadrant.

If you are not already there I think State Dept. would pay top dollar for this kind of talent.

How come we don’t like jihadi groups in the Sahel but we’re supporting them in Syria?

Are we directly supporting al-Nusra? Is the Free Syrian Army entirely composed of jihadis? Has the government of Mali facilitated the deaths of 10,000s of innocents? Has the government of Mali forced 100,000s of it citizens across the border and into allied countries? Did al-Nusra take Americans hostage and get some of them killed?

I’d only really care if you answer the first question with citations. My view is that the situations are completely different and our behavior is to support those who fight our enemies in a win-win cooperative arrangement. I don’t see what the problem is with that.

The problems of the Mali have no thing to do with resources extraction. The elected democratic government was quite okay and the western powers, whatever the reflexes of the Left to always see corporations darkly, had no reason to wish for a destablisation.

The mining activities which are important are in fact greatly destabilised, which is not different than the impact on the life of Maliens.

If you need an explanation, I think that you must think of the Algeria and the oil and gas, and the great threat that the ungoverned parts of the Sahara propose, as it is in the Sahara that the Algerian oil and gas is being extracted from. Also there is the mines of Niger, but let us be honest, the bandits that are AQIM can not mine uranium.

I do not think one can say it was allowed by the NATO. What is NATO going to do to stop and police the Sahara? This is an unrealistic and silly idea.

there is not magic to control the Sahara. This is only the latest sin that Qaddafi has visited upon us, for his armaments have been causing problems and wars deliberately for decades. At least there is now a chance it will end.

No we’re not directly funding them and the Free Syrian Army isn’t 100% jihadis. Some of them are just Syrians who want to see the regime overthrown. It still doesn’t alter the fact that if and when Assad does fall the remit of whoever takes over won’t extwend much outside of Damascus and the rest of the country will split into fiefdoms, some of them run by jihadi groups. Roughly what happened in Libya. It may be that at some point in the future the Triploi/new Damascus governments will bring peeance and freeance to the entire countries but in the meantime areas of Syria will be jihadi-friendly.

The situation of Libya has no resemblances to Syria. The Syrians are divided among many religions and sects. Libya is not stable with security that is not stable, but it is not a jihadist fiefdom either.

We aren’t.

One of the reasons that the U.S. has not simply been sending arms in to the Syrian rebels has been the consideration that several of the groups are Islamists and we do not want to arm them.
One of the reasons that Washington has begun making tentative noises about providing direct support to the Syrian rebels, recently, has been the information that the Islamists have been building up their own arms reserves and we would like more control in the region to avoid having the Islamists come out on top after the current government is expelled.

There is no guarantee that we will get it right, of course, but the current administration does seem to have learned the lessons provided by the Reagan administration’s support for the proto-Taliban in Afghanistan.