It’s a standby of movies set in Soviet Bloc countries or Nazi Germany. Some official type asks to see a citizen’s “papers” to see (I suppose) whether they are authorized to be traveling to a certain place inside the borders.
Does that sort of thing happen anywhere in today’s democracies, that documentation must be carried for a citizen to travel within the country?
Earl, ever been asked for your I.D. or license by a police officer or any other person in an official Govt. capacity, here in the US? I think most people have.
“Papers please?” just sounds nefarious because of Hollywood spy and war movies but it’s no different than the Highway Patrol asking for your license and registration. I don’t even think they need reason or cause to require your Identification, just like the roaming Gestapo and KGB agents of Hollywood fame.
It’s a different story (at least in the US) if you’re not driving. At least according to the ACLU, you don’t have to identify yourself to police if you’re stopped for questioning.
France, Greece, and Argentina require people to carry identification with them at all times, and to present it when asked.
There’s a difference between being accused of a crime and being stopped and interrogated simply because you wish to cross an internal boundary. In the US, for example, you can drive from Maine to California and reasonably expect to never have to present ID if you do not violate any laws along the way. Is there any modern democracy for which this is not true?
“They can always say your papers are not in order”
—Robert Anton Wilson
Hong Kong theoretically requires a biometric ID card to be carried with you at all times except I was never asked to produce it for inspection ever. It’s more used like a SSN is used in the US.
In France, in Paris, I’m stopped and interrogated 5 or 6 times a year without violating any law, just routine check: It can be in the subway, when I’m driving my car or on the street.
“Interrogated” is perhaps a big word, as soon as I show my ID, I am free to go…
Every modern democracy I’ve been to (eighteen and counting) allows police to stop a vehicle without necessarily alleging the commission of an offense. Random breath tests, roadworthiness checks, license checks based on a hunch. None of these are accusations of criminal behaviour though. Are you saying American police can only pull you over if they see or suspect you’ve broken a law? If so, I’d say America is unique in this regard. I can’t imagine riding across the breadth of France without being stopped at least once for those things and that’s only a fraction of the distance of a ME to CA run.
In Italy, I have been stopped a few times walking in the street with my wife (she’s Italian) and asked for ID. I always say - I’m from Ireland and I don’t have any (my passport is always in the house / hotel for safe keeping). They do accept it, but they definately want to check my wifes ID. I imagine that they would be slightly less cool about the whole affair if we were both travelling without ID.
Apparently, you can actually wander around Italy with no ID, and they can’t technically stop you, but they can really piss you off if they want, so it’s easier just to have the ID.
Yes, as a matter of fact, that is exactly how it is in the US. A police officer must have “reasonable suspicion” that you have violated the law or traffic regulations (not the same thing) before they can stop you.*
That said, if a police officer wants to stop you he or she can almost always find SOMETHING to qualify as “reasonable suspicion”. (Your left taillight is out. Can I see your license and registration? Thank you. …Oh, look, it’s working now. You really ought to have a mechanic check your wiring. Here’s your license. Drive safely, and have a nice day." **)
** Even this example is a bit much – I’ve heard it said that any police officer worth his or her paycheck can take a car right off the sales floor and find at least three LEGITIMATE violations.
Legal or not Police in the US do stop people for no reason or just on hunch. I used to get stopped all the time when I used to drive a beat up old ford around with long dread locks hanging down my back. I would usually get frisked and my car searched too. Or at least given a drunk test.
Once I was driving my mother home from a wedding reception and I got stopped for some made up reason. I was given a field drunk test and breathalizer. I was sober as a newborn. My mother was and still is dumbfounded to this day. Nothing like that had ever happened to her.
I got so sick of it that I simply quit driving cars.
Oh, and no cop was ever able to pin anything on me. I am a law abiding citizen.
I’m a white guy but from my experinces from when I was a young hippie looking type with whom cops obviously had a hard-on for I can understand when racial minorities say they’ve been targeted by police. Racial profiling can be used as a good example of how police in the U.S. are able to demand “papers” for no reason.
I’ve driven across the USA 7 or 8 times and never been pulled over by a cop. However I do recall some states in the South West having INS check points. I always got waved through the INS check points, I guess because I’m your average white guy. California used to have border check points where they could search your car for fruits and vegetables…at least there was a check point near Needles, CA. I was always at least questioned at those check points and once they made me open my trunk. I don’t recall them asking for any ID.
This point figures in lots of American movies and TV shows.
“Look, am I under arrest?”
“No.”
“So then I’ll just not be showing you any ID or talking to you, and I’ll be walking out of here. Bye.”
The cops do have the right, given recently IIRC, to pat you down while they’re talking to you, just to make sure that they’re not going to get a switchblade in the arm, but technically you don’t have to provide ID for walking down the street in America. There are lots of teenagers who don’t have any kind of legal ID at all. I certainly didn’t until I was 17 and got a drivers license. I imagine that there are some kids who go even longer, if they’re not needing to drive. OTOH, you need to provide legal ID to be legally employed in most states.
This all is why it’s so hard to control illegal immigration in America.
“Give me your license.”
“I wasn’t driving.”
That’s the end of the conversation. Being brown is not reasonable suspicion of being here illegally, and you can’t make someone prove that they’re who they say they are without a reason other than just feeling like it.
Remember that the American legal system was born out of a large fear of government harrasment of the citizenry, which had been happening a good bit under a government headed by someone who thought it was his right to do whatever he wanted.