Does political correctness preclude gay-stereotype comedy?

Great Debates
1

Like this, or this. (Actually, I think, of the Monty Python boys, only Graham Chapman was really gay, but that’s beside the point.)

Gay dudes, I don’t hate you and I don’t look down on you. I respect you, or at least I respect you no less for your sexual orientation and practices. But I do laugh at you, sometimes. Let’s face it: Homosexuality is funny. Many other things but funny, and many wonderful things I have no doubt, but, still, funny. Always has been, always will be. It’s funny because it involves sex – where would comedy be without the anxieties all humans feel over all matters sexual? It’s funny because it involves reversal of the usual expected order of things, and a lot of humor depends on that as well. It’s funny because it is a social/moral/religious taboo in many cultures – again, much humor is based on anxiety, which violation of taboos always involves. It’s funny because the stereotypes are not completely baseless, because a lot (not all) of gay men really do act in ways that make them perceptibly different from straight men even out of bed, and the unconventional is funny. And it’s funny because it (sometimes) involves the asshole. Anything involving the asshole is comedy-gold – is there any medical profession whose mere name mentioned without other context can raise a smirk as reliably as “proctologist”? Nay, not even “gynecologist”! Bring all those factors together and you have a perfect synergy of yux.

Is it really so horrible or bigoted to appreciate all of that?

As for lesbianism – that’s funny for all the same reasons (except he asshole thing), and also because its effect on the male half of the audience is . . . a bit weird and complicated. (Do women get off on watching men have sex with each other?! Well, actually, some women have told me they do, but it is apparently not a widespread enough taste to form the basis of a porn-genre aimed mainly at women. Assuming there is any porn-genre aimed mainly at women; “men are pigs” is a true stereotype that appears to transcend sexual orientation, prostitutes of any gender serving mainly female clients are extremely rare, and it seems to be the same with porn.)

And then there are bisexuals . . . though some say they’re just kidding themselves . . .

2

A lot of this has to do with power relationships. The more marginalised, alienated and victimised a group is, the more “comedy” can be intended as, or experienced as, another form of victimisation. That’s why jokes which target black people are much, much more charged with sinister menace than jokes which target middle-class white men, for example.

As for gays, the more homosexuality becomes mainstream, and as uncontroversial as having brown eyes or preferring black coffee over white, the less charged jokes about gays become.

3

I have fairly complicated feelings about this, and about seeing those kinds of comedy sketches, so I will try to keep my feelings out of it and discuss this as objectively as I can.

I don’t have much time for political correctness. If I were to be offended by such things, it would be on my own behalf, not on behalf of some protected class about whom we may never laugh. The issues for me have to do with who is doing the laughing, and what they are laughing at.

If you are inside a group, and you are laughing at the group stereotypes, then you are generally given a pass, because you are partially laughing at yourself. But if you are outside the group and laughing at the group stereotypes, then it looks like, if not bigotry, then at least cluelessness. This applies whether the group is ethnic (blacks, Jews, Asians, whoever) or based on sexual identity, or just because of where they live. When you laugh at a stereotype which doesn’t include yourself in some way, then it seems ill-natured and mean.

By the way, these sketches are not so much making fun of gay men as of effeminate men. Those are not contiguous groups. There are lots of effeminate men who are not gay, and there are lots of gay men who are not effeminate. I know a fair number of gay men, and most of them, outside of drag bars, never behave in the manner lampooned in these sketches.

Finally I will harken back to my feelings after all. Seeing these kinds of sketches at the time they were first broadcast was very hurtful to me. I was a lost teenager who had no idea there were (so many) other men who had feelings like I had. I thought I was a freak, and sketches like this just made that feeling more intense. I don’t think anything is gained by making fun of people in this way. It may be funny to you, to me it’s a cheap, nasty shot at a target who couldn’t fight back.

I find it hard to see this as a debate, anyway, as there is no objective standard for what is funny nor for what is hurtful. Trying to frame this as a debate about political correctness is a transparent charade.

Your mileage, of course, may vary.

4

This. This is why Irish jokes are far more “okay” today than they were 80 years ago. In the days when there was serious anti-Irish bigotry, the jokes weren’t funny. Today, it’s hard for many of us to take anti-Irish bigotry seriously.

It was okay to poke fun at Louis, the French Chef, in Disney’s “The Little Mermaid” because there really isn’t much anti-French bigotry in the U.S. nowadays. Had he been an Arabic chef, it would have been more uncomfortable.

5

An important distinction in this context. I don’t have a cite handy, but I’ve heard that Graham Chapman was pretty contemptuous of effeminate gay men, preferring the more macho type himself.

6

You have clearly never seen internet fanfiction. Or Tumblr.

7

A skillful humorist knows how to skirt the edge of political correctness. One can still turn on the TV and see negative black stereotypes being trumped out for comedic effect. The difference between this and the humor of yesteryear is that the former tends to be satirical/self-deprecating or it is so over-the-top ridiculous (e.g., The Family Guy, The Boondocks) that the offensiveness is considerably diluted.

Every sitcom seems to have at least one episode where the main character (a guy) ends up dressing up as a woman, with hilarity (supposedly) ensuing. This trope worked when the struggles of transgendered people weren’t in the public consciousness…before anyone personally knew of a person dealing with gender dysmorphia. But that’s changing. Once a “laughing stock” becomes humanized, then they cease being one. I don’t think this is political correctness as much as it is simply becoming more sophisticated and aware.

8

This, I think. It’s all in the context.

I have a gay daughter and a gay sister. I can make gay jokes to/about them and we all laugh. Also, my brother-in-law (not gay) and myself (also not gay) have a running script where we make jokes about how ridiculously gay the other person is, which offends neither my daughter or sister. It’s not seen as harmful or bigoted because both my sister and daughter know that neither of us have the slightest ill will towards alternative orientations. Rather, it upsets us greatly the hardships and negativity that they have to deal with regularly.

However, I wouldn’t dream of making the same jokes in public or around people who don’t know myself and my situation. They most likely would find it very offensive unless, perhaps, I stopped to explain my bonafides which, honestly, I don’t care to do.

Long story short, it’s a charged topic. Make jokes at your own risk.

9

PC has come up again, and once again I consider it to be the perfect opportunity to bring up this video. Specifically, the part about how for the most part, what gets labeled as “political correctness” is just “not being a jerk”. And that so much of the modern anti-PC backlash is jerks trying to paint themselves as protectors of free speech. The degree to which it’s “un-PC” to crack jokes about gay stereotypes is the degree to which these jokes are cruel towards a minority group which has gotten more than enough shit over the days. The comparison to race earlier was good too - there’s a reason why the racist stereotypes in Blaxploitation movies are seen as racist and nasty and mean and “Un-PC” while the racist stereotypes in, say, The Boondocks aren’t. Now apply that to gays.

10

IMO, We really have two topics here.

  1. Humor

  2. Political correctness in re: homosexuality

And here’s the thing, Judy Gold (a lesbian) has a bit about Provincetown that she told to a mostly gay audience in that city:

[QUOTE=Judy Gold]
You could literally walk down the street with a blowdryer shoved up your ass and no one would say a fucking thing to you. “Hey Bill! No diffuser today?”
[/QUOTE]

Let’s break it down why that is (IMHO) funny.

One, it discusses the homosexual stereotype of sticking things in one’s ass. Then it shows how common it is to be seen in Provincetown. It also points out how politically correct it is to be nonchalant about something that’s a bit over the top.

The line though is drawn here by a lesbian. If Larry the Cable Guy were to say it, eyebrows would definitely be raised. Why? Because we are accustomed to seeing hate veiled as comedy to denigrate groups at their expense. So, if Larry were to say such a thing, we, as an audience, would probably want to stop and investigate their motives.

Another example would be (African American) singer Screamin’ Jay Hawkins’ humorous song “Ignant and Shit”

There’s the rub, and if you want to call it unfair, you’re more than welcome to. But the humor only really works when it’s self-affacing. Otherwise motives are just going to be questioned which makes the same exact joke less funny.

11

Well, I may have had that phrase in mind because of this recent thread.

12

Of course it is.

13

I have to say, BrainGlutton, that the idea here is juvenile and kind of gross. You can make fun of anybody or anything, but there’s a general tone here of “homosexuality is funny because it’s different and weird, plus, buttholes!”

If that’s the case, homosexuality isn’t funny- sexuality is funny. Which it often is.

That’s not so funny. That’s the kind of no-homo/gay panic stuff that you can hear more and more people people objecting to these days. It’s to our credit that our culture is gradually moving past the idea that this is really funny.

I’m not sure what you mean here. Some cultures think homosexuality is immoral or discriminate against gays. What’s funny about that? It’s funny when people like that turn out to be liars or hypocrites, but again, that’s not a feature unique to homosexuality.

Does anybody want to tell BrainGlutton that straight people do asshole-y things, too?

14

Gay humor is great. Modern Family does a good job of it without giggling about buttholes…

That being said, if the gay community finds offense to every joke (which is far from the case in my experience), then they need to pull the proverbial stick out their you-know-what.

15

I’ve only seen a couple of episodes of Modern Family, but I think they’re making jokes about the gay experience or a specific type of gay experience and person. That’s not the same as saying “homosexuality is funny.” That’s a much broader statement, and it does have some nasty implications.

16

Yes, but that lacks the synergy.

17

There’s a Golden Girls episode where Blanche (the slutty one) sees a guy alone in a restaurant who is mulling over proposing to his SO. She talks him into it with a long spiel about how love is always worth it and stuff, and goes back to her own table. Then, obvious punchline, a guy walks in and the dude proposes to him. Cue laugh track.

Obviously, at the time this (joke) wouldn’t have raised an eyebrow. Now it might, but I still don’t think there’s anything particularly offensive about it.

18

I agree it doesn’t sound offensive, but it’s pretty mild. Today that wouldn’t read as a joke.

19

Political correctness precludes comedy.

With that said, unsophisticated comedy is gonna tank no matter what. You shouldn’t expect anyone to laugh just because a dude talks with a lisp or acts like the stereotypical limp wrist. That may have worked in the past when just recognizing that gay people existed gave network censors the vapors, but not so much anymore. You have to actually be creative and make some sort of commentary on relationships or what people think or something. You can’t cry “PC!” as a defense for your terrible jokes.

20

My gay daughter loves those guys. I asked if they don’t take it too far over the top, but she said she knows guys very much like them and she gets to laugh at them by proxy because, as everybody knows, gay guys are funny. Gay women, not so much.

Her words, not mine.