Fred’s brain in hyperspace selects a universe in which Salma Hayek’s car has broken down in front of his door.
DING DONG
Fred opens the door, Salma asks if she can use the phone, then leaves. Uh-oh.
Fred’s brain switches awareness to an alternate universe a few seconds back in time, where suddenly after using the phone Salma feels dizzy and faints into his arms.
“I think these clothes are too tight,” says Fred. He unbuttons her blouse. “EEEEEEK!” SLAP! Salma regains consciousness. Uh-oh.
Switch again.
Salma remains asleep while Fred carries her upstairs and makes her comfy.
A couple of more switches and it’s all over except for the moaning.
That’s what I meant about being able to be selective with your awareness across the multiverse. You could create your own custom life practically. Practical omnipotence. The curse of course would be be awaring of all possible universes at once.
No, I don’t believe that. They will have all of Scylla’s memories up to the point that they materialize, right? So, in their memories, they will be sitting in the chair, then suddenly they will be three feet away. Only the original Scylla will have an uninterrupted kinesthetic memory of being in one place for the whole time; everyone else’s will “jump around”. They simply inquire among themselves and find the clones, or look for the person who is still in the place they were before the “jump”. At least, that’s what my clever Gaudere-clones would do.
Yes, and then one remembers saying it and the others remember hearing it. The others saw it a fraction later, and so they will not notice the exact way the sun glinted off his wings on the downbeat they never saw.
I’m sorry, this just doesn’t even make very good pseudo-telepathy, in my opinion. I can pretty much guarantee that when I hold up a picture of a dog, 99% of the adults who see it will think “dog”, but I would never even think to consider that any sort of telepathy. That’s like calling my belief that my mother will make Christmas dinner is precognition. It isn’t, just a good assumption based on my knowledge. The same is true of the Scyllas; they do not know what each is thinking, they can just make a really good–but increasingly unreliable–guess about it. Where it utterly fails from true telepathy is that you cannot say, show a number to one Scylla and have the other know what it is.
Now that I look, Spiritus just said this, only fancier. Humph.
Guadere/Polycarp and any clones our alternate selves who might be listening:
At best with Clones what you get is a version of that “profiler” chick. The clones might be able to make some eerily good guesses, but that’s it.
This reminds me. The Lakers were working on something like this in the 80s and were actually able to succeed with Kareem Abdul Jabbar. They cloned him and at the top of his form, they forze the clones so that they’d have them when they needed them.
When Kareem would get injured, it was no longer a problem. They could just go to the freezer and get…
Actually, since we were talking about crimes commited by clones and whether a clone was still “you”, I do remember one crime involving a clone. A scientist had cloned himself. He was speaking at a national convention of cloning scientists held on a very high floor floor of a New York skyscraper.
The scientist arrived with his clone and began his impressive yet modest speech.
“My fellow scientists,” he started. But before he could utter another word, the clone sprang to his feet and shouted out, “He’s an ASSHOLE!”. The crowd began to murmur as the scientist commanded the clone to “sit down and shut-up!”. Apologizing for the interruption, the scientist started again, “My fellow scientists.” Again the clone sprang to his feet and yelled, “This dumb SHIT couldn’t produce a copy on a Xerox. He’s a fraudulent SON-OF-A-BITCH!”
Incensed, the scientist rushed to the clone, grabbed him, and threw him out of the window.
The crowd gasped and security rushed into the room. A short while later New York’s finest arrived and were explained the events that had transpired.
The police chief said to the scientist, “We are going to have to arrest you.” The scientist (who must be related to Scylla) replied, “For what? I have committed no crime. What fell from the window was a clone, just a copy of myself, not a real separate person. And it can’t be suicide, since I’m still right here.” The attending scientists nodded in agreement. “Well,” retorted the police chief, “we can’t let this murder go without any censure!”
The police chief thought for a moment and ordered the scientist held for “Making an obscene clone fall…”
Fred.
Fred in the Multiverse.
Fred passing information through the multiverse.
Some Universe have different physical laws.
(hop)
**Fred can do almost anything in some Universe. **{Why? What in our axioms allows us to suppose that a consistent set of physical laws exists which will allow a being to do “almost anything”?} Fred cannot break the laws of physics in other Universes.{Is this correct? Did you leave out a negation? Your next sentence seems to imply that meaning. If so, then that assumption is the next jump. If not. . .}
(skip)
**Fred is nigh omnipotent. **{Why? Because a Universe exists in which Fred can do “almost anything” and he is aware of it? He is also aware of infinitely many Universes in which he cannot do everything. In some Universes Fred is powerful. In others, he is powerless. In all, he has only the power that the physical laws in place allow.}
(jump)
**Fred is not involved with time anymore. **{BIG leap, here. Why not? In fact, he would seem involved in infinitely many times. It is as far from static as it is possible to get. Remember, you have positied a consciousness that spans all Universes from within. He will be every bit involved in time as he is in space.}
(leap)
**Fred is continuously doing all things. **{What you talkin’ bout, Mr Scylla? Fred is continuously doing an infinite number of things. He is not doing all things. In any given (non-trivial) Universe there are infinitely many more things he is not doing than things he is doing.}
(bound)
**Fred lacks free will. **{Huh? Unless Fred never had that quality then he retains it now. True, for every decision Fred makes, new Universes will spin off in which he made different choices. And Fred will instantly become aware of his existence in those new Universes. But that divergence does not occur until after he makes his choice in any given Universe. His choice is still free, he just gets to see (every time) what would have happened if . . .} This is Fred’s brain.
Imagine Fred can select to restrict his awareness to only one reference frame.
(pole vault)
**Fred is omniscient and has free will. **{Fred never lost free will, if he ever had it, but he has gained no particular power that he lacked before. True, Fred can in all cases select the most desireable chain of events possible. He can “be all that Fred can be”. But he cannot be anything that Fred is not naturally (in whichever given Universe) capable of being. Imagine Fred wants to fly like Superman. Well, if a Universe happens to exist in which it is possible for Fred to fly unaided by simply by force of desire, then he can. If no such Universe exists, then he can’t. Remember – the only quality Fred has gained axiomatically is awareness across the Multiverse. He’s still just Fred, otherwise.}
**Fred’s omnipotence is limited only to his own perspective. **{This is the payoff? Hell, why bother with wormholes. A good acid trip will get you the same place more cheaply.}
(salivate)
**Fred gets Salma. **{Hey, it’s a nice party trick, but as an expression of omnipotence it’s pretty meager. Fred is still limited to only those things possible for any particular “non-Multiversally aware” Fred-type-being. Besides, Fred’s wife would get really mad at him. Trust me on this one. Some things even Fred wouldn’t dare.}
BTW – rereading some of my posts in this thread confirms that my typing has fallen below my normally abysmal standard. I apologize for the multiple malapropisms (hey–but if there were ever a thread where I could worm-hole out of them) and thank you all for reading past them to get my meaning.
We don’t need a consistent set, we just need differing sets of rules that allow different things, and this to occur in a wide variety of universes. In toto, we guess Fred can do most anything because the laws of physics will probably allow it in one of the universes (I know.)
**
Fred would be bound by the rules of whatever universe he was presently focussing his awareness in. For example, in universe Z, the speed of light might be 100 mph. Relativistic effects would occur while going out for a jog. In order to go faster than 100 mph, Fred would shift his awareness to a universe where the speed of light was greater than that. He could break the rule, just not in that universe.
**
There’s no one universe where Fred can do everything, especially since some things would be contradictory. In different universes he can do different things. His ability to shift his awareness between the universes is what enables him to do just about anything.
[Quote]
**
**Fred is not involved with time anymore. **{BIG leap, here. Why not? In fact, he would seem involved in infinitely many times. It is as far from static as it is possible to get. Remember, you have positied a consciousness that spans all Universes from within. He will be every bit involved in time as he is in space.}
[quote]
**
I dunno, in the sum total of Fred’s awareness, it must seem like one timeless moment in which he is in all universes doing all things constantly. If each universe is different only by a single instance of randomality, and a planck time moment, then from the POV of Fred’s central awareness, nothing ever changes. He is always doing the same infinite number of things.
**
Yeah, you’re correct. All is easier to type then infinite though.
**
Yeah, but Fred’s wormholes act like time machines too. He’s already done every choice possible thing, leading to whatever new universes that would create.
**
I don’t think I said Fred is omniscient. You’re right by saying that Fred is still limited by his Fredness. If Fred is an idiot, he’s still just an idiot.
**
::sigh::
Don’t you understand? Fred could also select a universe in which his wife doesn’t mind if he goes around having sex with supermodels all the time.
And you call this meager? What else would you do with omnipotence?
Allright, so it’s not omnipotence. It seems like Fred is within shouting distance though.
Well, as long as you are simply hypothesizing physical Universes with physical laws vastly different than our own, why not simply hypothesize a Universe where Fred is omnipotent. It amounts to exactly the same thing. Once you move radically beyond the physical laws of our own Universe, we have no way of meaningfully saying what sets of rules might be “possible”.
Okay – but you seem to be hypothesizing that Fred will find an analog to any situation he encounters in one Universe in other Universes where his capabilities are radically different. I see no reason why this should be so. Universes with radically different physical laws will be incredibly divergent. Trivial example: Fred wants to lift the biggest rock ever. Luckily, Fred has an infinite subset of Universes in which his physical strength is virtually boundless. Unfortunately, none of those Universes allow sufficient concentrations of mass to form “the biggest rock ever”.
For that matter, if Fred is trapped within only those consciousnesses which would be “his” in any given Universe, he might be a protoplasm in the Universes which allow extreme physical strength. It seems to me that you need Fred to have the ability to choose from “any” reference frame within a Universe, not simply “his”. {Not that that gets you all the way there, either}
Why? I have no idea what would make this necessary. You hypothesized a consciousness capable of meaningfully interpreting infinite amounts of information. What would require (or allow) it to experience that information only as one static moment?
For that matter, if you think Fred experiences all Universes as one static moment, how can you possibly have Fred making decisions (such as which reference frame to select)? Decision requires change which requires a flow of time.
This doesn’t follow at all. From Fred’s persepctive, an infinite number of things would be changing from one moment to the next.
You are forgetting some of the restrictions inherent in a wormhole time machine. I suggest you review the link you yourself posted on wormholes. Consistency must be maintained. Any information Fred gains from his wormholes cannot change the decisions which resulted in Fred gaining said information.
Of course, in this case if Fred gains information through wormholes it might lead to paradox. You axiomatically required an infinite Multiverse. Every decision point is fully populated, no matter which path Fred decides to inform with his “consciousness”. And, also axiomatically, Fred is aware of each branching Universe. In one of those branches, Fred’s alternative decision must change the outcome of events he was informed of through a temporal wormhole. But that can’t happen.
Paradox. This is pretty interesting, actually. It might be that if you need wormholes for a Multiversally aware being, then that being cannot gain information through a temporal wormhole while maintainig ubiquity of consciousness. Any information gained “out of time” would necessarily cause a “blind spot” in those Universes whose branches require a different “result”.
Oh please – there are limits to how far my imagination can stretch.
And no, I’m not going to tell you what those limits are. Fred’s wife lurks sometimes and she might stumble onto this thread.
Obviously Spiritous is not one of the true followers of Fred, otherwise he wouldn’t be posting this heresy.
**
That’s what the I know meant. I’ll go so far ast to hypothesize that Fred might be able to do different things in different universes due to different physical laws, but it is useless to guess what they are, and only safe to assume that some things will remain closed to him.
**
Yeah.
**
I’m thinking it might be like looking at all the frames of an entire movie at once, lit up on screens all around you. All of the story and sequence is there, but all at once. It would either seem static or possibly incredibly busy. One or the other.
**
Yeah, but the sum of everything would still be the same. There would be no net change.
**
I read that, and I understand the reasoning through the shining the lightbulb at the back of your head analogy. I don’t see why you couldn’t change something and that would just be another occurence to cause another split in the multiverse.
**
Hah! Already though of a way around it. As I see it there’s three possibilities.
Fred can’t change anything, because if he did he would have changed the conditions that allowed him his access.
Fred can change things, but if it does it rips the very fabric of the universe by breaking continuity (I love that phrase,) possibly resulting in the end of space-time.
Each one of those wormholes through time represents a nexus where actions can result in the creation of new universes to maintain continuity. In some universes Fred creates a blind spot, in others he doesn’t. This also leads to his conscioussness being pretty fragmented, doesn’t it? Fred is becoming something of a gestalt organism, like a beehive. He becomes several entities each with varying knowledge, motivations and limitations.
Fred isn’t even omnipotent yet, and already what power he has is breaking up into several parts.
It seems to me it would be more like watching every movie ever made, one frame at a time, simultaneously.
Because it leads to a paradox. Every occurence causes splits. But if you use a wormhole to gain foreknowledge of an action – then you **cannot[/]b change the course of that action. To do so violates consistency. (Remember the pool ball!)
BUT, in your hypothesized Multiverse both branches must exist – which means Fred must change the course of his foreknowledge in some Universe. But this is a paradox.
Fred cannot simultaneously obtain foreknowledge through temproal wormholes and maintain consciousness through all possible Universes.
Doesn’t work. Every decision point in your infinite Multiverse must be fully populated. That means that in an infinite subset of Universes Fred must change the conditions which allowed him his foreknowledge. But he can’t do that – oops.
Well, this is basically the same as saying he can’t do it, since he cannot do it within the constraints of a Multiverse containing all possible Universes.
Huh? Every decision point in every Universe represents a “nexus where actions can result in the creation of new universes”. The wormholes are not special in that regard.
"In some universes Fred creates a blind spot, in others he doesn’t. I can’t make sense of this. The blind spots are not within Universes, the blind spots would be Universes which Fred’s foreknowledge has made forever beyond his perception. There is no Universe in which Fred’s consciousness can maintain knowledge of a Universe “blacked out” by foreknowledge.
Of course, this instantly makes one of your prime axia invalid. In other words, once Fred gains foreknowledge through a temporal wormhole (whether or not he tries to “act” upon it), he ceases to become “Fred of the whole Multiverse”.
“Fred is becoming something of a gestalt organism, like a beehive. He becomes several entities each with varying knowledge, motivations and limitations.” Yep – but to paraphrase some old politician, I knew Fred, I hypothesized Fred, and that Fred’s no Fred.[sub]see above[/sub]
If all possibilities are fulfilled, then mustn’t there be universes where Fred creates blind spots so he doesn’t violate continuity, and universes where he doesn’t. If we have both, we no longer have Fred of the multiverse, we have Freds of the multiverse.
I will, later, address the problem of Fred the Omnipotent, God of the Multiverse, and his lack of free will. (Hey, if Fred can exist with his powers, somewhere in the Multiverse, another Fred exists, with free will in addition to his omniFredditude.
For the nonce, I will observe the problem with the Abdul Jabbar frozen clones. When taken out of the freezer, none of them could shoot hoops at all.
Worse, none of them could pronounce the letter “R”
…Clearly, rather than being iced Kareem clones, they were Fuddsicles.
This would seem to be logically impossible. It is apparently rather like saying that there must be a universe where something is A and Not-A at the same time. If we are ignoring logic, well, ice cream has no bones.
The blind spot exists in Fred’s perception of the Multiverse, which was axiomatically assumed to be singular and pervasive. It does not exist “in” any Universe. There is no quantum branching point which would create the divergence you are talking about.
Fred does not create blind spots. The laws of temporal continuity and wormholes create the blind spots. You are welcome to abandon them, but then you have to abandon wormholes and create a brand new definition for Fred.
This, also, violates the initial axiom that Fred’s awareness is singular and pervasive across the Multiverse. Even if it did not, since Fred’s loss of free will (if he actually had omniscience, which has yet to be demonstrated) is a consequence of his abilities, it violates logic to presume another Fred exists with the same abilities but not subject to the consequences thereof. [sub]which Gaudere pretty much said already, but I felt the need to express again in the overly-verbose and typo-ridden prose which has become my trademark[/sub]
Well, you can hypothesize a being that violates continuity, but you cannot do so while using the trappings of wormhole physics. (Well, you can but you would not be justified in doing so. It is intellectually dishonest. Kind of like trying to use logic to determine/defend characteristics of a being presumed to transcend logic.)
???
This does not violate continuity.
Well, if you believe the noted physicists referenced in your own links then, yes, that is exactly what it means.
Oh I’m sure he’s right about the continuity, I just don’t understand it yet.
Let’s say in one of Fred’s universes he goes back in time and meets his Grandma. Grandma Fred is a hottie, and they have sex.
Fred becomes his own grandfather.
This is allowable, right?
Fred decides to save JFK by slipping a micky to Lee Harvey or the guy on the knoll. Now continuity would suggest that we already know that Fred fails, since the reason Fred goes back is to save JFK, and if JFK isn’t dead Fred can’t go back and try to save him, but since he does, Fred fails, right?
I see no problems with contiuity, but there might be a problem with causality. Of course, it doesn’t really apply to Fred anyway, since a wormhole can never access a time before the creation of the wormhole. Therefore, the wormholes which are part of Fred do not allow him access to any time before the moment he attained “Fredness”.
If we “begin” with the fact that Fred impregnates his grandmother, then continuity would in fact require that he travel back in time to do so. That result is “fixed” in the instant of impregnation. He simply an’t do it through his own wormholes. He needs to find another way.
Ah, but what is your evidence for causality? Simply that it applies – or at least appears to apply – in this Universe.
How about a Universe in which everything happens because it happens to be God’s will? Or His whim? Or because the Invisible Pink Unicorn preordained it on the Holy Note Cards? Or a world in which a flake of dandruff falls off Fred between universes and becomes a separate and distinct universe in which hair lice attain the highest level of consciousness?
