Fred can’t use his Einstein Rosen Bridge to the dirty boogie with Grandma because the bridge was not originated while Grandma was babealicious, right?
If Fred is also hooked up with Quantum wormholes and those connect to “hot grandma time,” then he could be his own Grandpa without any causality or continuity conflicts, right?
Polycarp:
For the moment I’m trying to stick with stuff where logic still applies, and see what kind of conclusions I can draw. We’re already pretty far out there, and if we go much further we lose the ability to have meaningful discussion.
Spiritus:
I haven’t yet conceded that from Fred’s central point things don’t seem static.
I watch one movie more than once, and it feels static. Infinite movies running over and over with only minute variations between them is gonna be pretty boring especially if the time machine nature of Fred’s wormhole situation says that he does this forever. Or does Fred only do this once as he gets old and dies in his wormhole? Is he subject to time there? I guess he would be, but if Fred also manifest in universes with differing time scales those different time Freds might outlive the Fred central consciousness in the wormhole.
The wormhole is essentially a black hole held open at the moment of evaporation. What relativity effects does Fred experience in it? Isn’t he pretty much frozen in time and immortal for as long as the wormhole remains open (from the perspective of the rest of the universes?)
No, from Central Fred’s perspective time flows normally. He goes into the wormhole, hangs out for a while and leaves. The data he receives from his other selves comes to him at various rates, depending on the timescale of the universe it comes from. From outside the wormhole there is no limit to how long he can remain inside. From the inside, Central Fred still has only one lifetime to live in or out of the wormhole.
Essentially, it makes no difference whether from Fred’s perspective he lingers in the wormhole for a mere moment or a lifetime, does it? Any amount of time could have passed in one of the outside universes, right?
Fred is not involved with time, he’s outside of it, right?
Poly
What you are proposing are not Universes without causality, just Universes with different physical rules (hypothetically – I am not arguing that it is impossible that this Universe follows the whim of a unicorn riding on the dandruff that falls from God’s whiskers.)
More to the point, I did not argue that Fred could not be his own grandfather because it violates causality. I have no particular reason to assert that linear causality is maintained through temporal wormholes. I simply noted that it might be a problem.
scylla
If Fred is also hooked up with Quantum wormholes and those connect to “hot grandma time,” then he could be his own Grandpa without any causality or continuity conflicts, right?
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It kind of sepends on what you mean by “hooked up”. It would seem to me that the temporal restrictions on wormhole travel are inherent in the ability itself: no wormhole can allow access to a time before the wormhole came into being. In short, while Fred might be able to father his father (or mother) through use of a wormhole external to and pre-existing himself, he cannot do so through any wormholes intrinsic to his being.
I see no reason for this to violate continuity. It might, in fact, be require by continuity. (Though, that also immediately either relegates a subset of Universes to a “Fred-free zone” or else negates the possibility that those Universes can exist.)
Fred being his own grandfather does violate causality. I do not know if that is a problem.
Fred does not necessarily watch any “movie” more than once. As we have been discussing, the consequences of knowledge gained from temporal wormholes to Fred’s Multiversal consciousnes, and his free will, are severe.
As to boredom, while it is true that Fred experiences an infinite number of Universes that are practically identical, he also experiences every possible variation of Universes. Why would he dwell on the ones that are alike? When watching a movie (for whatever time) do you pay close attention to the sensation of your butt on the chair? How about the blink-rate of your eyes?
I have been assuming that the Muliversal fred consciousness was independent of any particular physical manifestation. (I would think this would be required.) “Fred” exists as long as any Universe maintains a fragement of that consciousness.
You seem to be working from the idea that a physical being is moving in and out of wormholes. Is that correct? I was under the impression that we were talking about a non–physical consciousness that utilized wormholes to transfer informaiton to and from an infinite number of physical manifestations (at least on in each Universe). If there really is one “real” Fred, then the earlier arguments about the capabilities Fred gains in other Universes are incorrect.
Fred’s consciousness is outside of time (or more correctly, times), but his perception is not. His perception is a summation of infinite aspects, all of which are bound to a particular time/Universe. When I listen to an orchestra, I receive inputs from many instruments, many of them playing notes that are nearly identical. It does not follow that I experience sound as “static”. In fact, my consciousness blends the discrete elements into “music”.
In thinking about Fred, I agree that we need to clarify. I’ve been trying to think if it makes more sense that we simply have Fred manifesting in infinite universes, with wormhole communication between them, or if we have a central Fred inside the wormhole, and copies of him that he can selectively access.
I originally thought the latter, when I proposed the idea, but there is actually no good reason why it should be so. I’ve been trying to figure out the causality issue, and can’t see why it would prevent Fred from being his own Grandpa in this instance.
I’m also beginning to think that we’ve taken Fred about as far as we can go.
If He developed the courses in macro-canonical statistics and quantum physics, deference to Hiesenberg, then I agree, only God, himself, could get through these courses with a passing grade! Proves the OP!